Parra sent to Nashville; Narveson up

[Milltownhooker]

So whose the best internal canditate to take Parra's spot? Dillard, or Cody

[PrinceEatMeat]

So whose the best internal canditate to take Parra's spot? Dillard, or Cody

Seth McClung. He was the 6th starter in camp, so no reason to believe that he isn't still the top option.

[trwi7]

Yeah, I would say McClung. Dillard needs to have more strikeouts than walks to become a viable option to me. I just can't see Cody having success as a starter in the majors.

[Oldcity]

I am really sick of watching McClung and his lack of control and hope he doesn't last the season. Thing is, there is no good option. This pitching staff overall isn't good after Gallardo.

[PrinceEatMeat]

I am really sick of watching McClung and his lack of control and hope he doesn't last the season. Thing is, there is no good option. This pitching staff overall isn't good after Gallardo.

I agree that we really don't have any good options, but the question was who the BEST option for an internal candidate is, and I think that is McClung. He had some success in a starting role last season, and Dillard has no starting experience in the majors, so I think McClung deserves first crack at it.

[tyguy20204]

Time to start the Chris Cody bandwagon.

[JJHardy7]

Dillard needs to have more strikeouts than walks to become a viable option to me. I just can't see Cody having success as a starter in the majors.

 

It's not like it's a huge gap though. The same can be said (more or less) of two other starters in Nashville. Dillard is moving from the pen to a starting role. I'm not saying I agree with it, but given this he's working on more pitches (I've stated this in the past a few times). I wouldn't look at that rate all that much though since he's not walking a ton of guys. I think the biggest thing with Tim now is to build his arm...so he's not dancing around guys, which is going to lead to more balls hit into play. For example, he averaged 8k/9 last year in 63 1/3 and is now at 3k/9 in 66 innings. He has the stuff to striked out guys though. His walks per 9 are actually down this year so it's not as simple as comparing the two. I've said before that moving Dillard to a starting role was not a smart idea (not because he can't do it...I just don't like the moving guys around as much at AA or AAA). Dillard IMO is at least an average arm out the of the pen in MLB. Is he a starter? Not so sure about that, but so far it seems that the Brewers have refused to call him up even though IMO he's the best pitcher in Nashville.

[burniebrewer]

Hid demeanor/body language was fine in the minors and it was fine when he was pitching well in Milwaukee.

 

Just my opinion, but I hate his body language. He really bothers me. He just has that 'whatever' look on his face, but he may just be really dumbfounded and confused, I don't know.

 

Note you said when he was in the minors and pitching well....neither one of those have been happening for quite some time. I hope he has great body language and results in Nashville--far away from Milwaukee.

 

Again, just my opinion, but I can do without his every 5th day loss routine.

[jwill535]

He is on the other end of the spectrum of Joba Chamberline. While Chamberline get over excited to the point that it can effect his pitching, Parra just looks defeated or dumbfounded to the point that it looks like he doesnt know whats wrong.

 

When he was taken out, the first thing I thought was that he is getting sent down. My next thought was that, just going off his body language and the way he seems to handle things, it wouldn't surprise me if he just up and quit baseball.

[nate82]

Yeah, I would say McClung. Dillard needs to have more strikeouts than walks to become a viable option to me.

Dillard throws a sinker right? I don't see a problem with low strike outs with a sinker ball pitcher but I do wish he would get his walks down though. McClung really isn't stretched out to be a starter right now. I'm not sure I would want to hurt the bullpen with McClung only going 3 or 4 innings in his first few starts you know Suppan is going to have a start where he only lasts a few innings soon along with Looper.

 

Bush and Gallardo are the only two pitchers I have faith in them going 7 innings and with Bush you know you will have a few games where he will only go 5 innings. I would rather have Dillard starting than McClung who hasn't been stretched out and then the bullpen suffering because of it.

[Ennder]

There have been plenty of pitchers who look uncomfortable on the mound but pitched fine, Al Leiter is a great example. Every time they hit him he grimaced like it was the end of the world. Body language has absolutely nothing to do with success at the major league level in my opinion. Parra isn't throwing strikes, has nothing at all to do with his mental state, it is a physical thing like with every other pitcher who can't throw strikes.

[LouisEly]

Good lucky Manny. Right the ship, you have good stuff. See you once you correct your problems and give us a push for a playoff run.

Amen, sister. They need him because they really don't have much for starting pitching prospects coming up in the next 2-3 years, so in order to prevent having to overpay for free agents or mortgage prospects in trades to fill the starting rotation they will need him to get back on track.

 

I don't see a problem with low strike outs with a sinker ball pitcher but I do wish he would get his walks down though.

 

When your third basemen are Mat Gamel and Bill Hall it might be a little bit of a concern. Granted, Weeks and Fielder have made strides but when 3/4ths of your infield could potentially be Gamel/Weeks/Fielder, a low strikeout sinkerball pitcher doesn't make you entirely comfortable. I do think though that Dillard is the guy to try first.

 

As for McClung, the Brewers don't have enough innings in their bullpen now to stretch him out. He needs to stay in the pen.

[nate82]

There have been plenty of pitchers who look uncomfortable on the mound but pitched fine, Al Leiter is a great example. Every time they hit him he grimaced like it was the end of the world. Body language has absolutely nothing to do with success at the major league level in my opinion. Parra isn't throwing strikes, has nothing at all to do with his mental state, it is a physical thing like with every other pitcher who can't throw strikes.

Actually Parra has been throwing strikes it is just that when he throws his strikes they are nearly right down the middle of the plate making it easy for the batters to hit the ball. I don't care what kind of stuff you have if you are throwing the majority of your strikes over the heart of the plate they are going to get hit and they are probably not going to be coming back. It really hasn't been the walks that have been hurting Manny it has been all of the hits he has been giving up that have been hurting him. Manny's H/9 is 11.55 that is not good at all. Manny's walks per 9 innings is bad but they are somewhat close to his stats from the last two years.

 

It is the hits that are killing Manny not really the walks. The walks are the frustrating part of Manny not really his downfall so far this year it is him leaving his pitches all over the strike zone and not in good spots either. I think that last series against Atlanta where Manny didn't really pitch all that bad got to him after seeing some of the pitchers pitches get hit in Atlanta I really think it got to him.

[Tbadder]

Whatever the reason for his implosion it wasn't a lack of fortitude mental or physical.

 

I'd have Dave Bush talk to him.

[UeckerAddict]

After Parra was abused some more last year he was finally put into the bullpen but by that time it was way to late and the damage already had been done.

Didn't we end up making the playoffs?

[TheCrew07]

There have been plenty of pitchers who look uncomfortable on the mound but pitched fine, Al Leiter is a great example. Every time they hit him he grimaced like it was the end of the world. Body language has absolutely nothing to do with success at the major league level in my opinion. Parra isn't throwing strikes, has nothing at all to do with his mental state, it is a physical thing like with every other pitcher who can't throw strikes.

Your arrogance is astounding, there's no better way to put it.

 

Sabmertrics has changed some game strategy and has given us some very powerful tools for player analysis, but it has not and will not change how the game is played. Baseball has been played for well over 100 years, and it's always going to come down between the mind game between the pitcher/catcher and the hitter. There's no way you've stood on a pitcher's mound with your constant refusal to accept what's painfully obvious, these are basic fundamentals of throwing.. it doesn't matter if it's a baseball, softball, or football, it's pretty much all the same from your feet to shoulder, the arm actions and follow throughs are the only difference.

 

His fastball isn't under 90 mph because of mechanics, his fastball is under 90 mph because he's aiming it. There is a huge difference between throwing a ball and trying to aim a ball in there, the latter rarely works. I have tons of footage of QBs who throw great in pre game and then get tentative and try to guide the ball to the reciever in the game. I've been on the mound and aimed my pitches, I'm sure countless others on this sight have been too and know exactly what I'm talking about. I see young QBs and HS pitchers aim their throws constantly, I see it at T-Rat games occassionally, but you don't see it very often at the highest levels of professional sports. Countless people on the site can see it, his teammates, coaches, and GM can see it, Uecker talked about it on the air during the Atlanta game only he used the phrasing "for some reason he starts to pull back"... the annecdotal evidence is overwhelming...

 

I know it's fun to bag on old baseball cliches and what not, but no matter how times or different ways you post it, your opinion is no more true than the first time you posted it, and it is woefully innaccurate. None of those pitchers is Manny Para, and as a coach you absolutely have to learn the body language of your players because most of them aren't going to be honest with themselves or with you. Maybe you've never coached, maybe your job doesn't require you to "read" people... I don't know. I do know what I see, I know what the player and everyone around him has said, I know my personal experience on the playing field and as a coach... maybe you just don't like some of us and dismiss our opinions without giving them their due diligence?

 

A long time I listened to a very wise man speak about player development at a conference, he talked about 2 scales... 1 physical, 1 mental. He said almost every athlete at the professional level has physical ability of at least a 7 on a 10 scale, the only thing that separates out the players is where they fall on a mental side. This is why the draft is such a crap shoot, regardless of the sport, the teams just never really know how players are going to react to outside influences of money and fame in additon to their determination, confidence, and will to succeed. Occassionally there will be a player of 6 skill physically, but he manages to have a good to great career because he's a 9 or 10 mentally. He went on to say that there are many players who have physical ability in that 9 to 10 range, but very few have the mental ability of a 9 or 10... hall of fame players come when exceptional talent meets exceptional mental make up. A player's true talent is the sum of physical gifts + or - the mental. It's been over 10 years now, and I still think back to that presentation almost every day. The speaker was the late Fritz Shurmur... who got more out of his talent than most.

 

There's an excellent article linked here some place, or maybe it was BCB, about Ian Kinsler and the mental side of baseball, but what's true of baseball is true of any sport. Maybe the people that scouted, drafted, and developed him will be more convincing than the rest of us are. If I can locate the article I'll link to it.

 

edit. It was BCB, here's the post.and here' a direct link to the Kinsler article.

[nate82]

Didn't we end up making the playoffs?

I wasn't talking about the team I was talking about Parra being abused when he was on a limited innings and pitch count early in the year which never looked like Yost really followed.

[BrewCrewForever]

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1131/642605901_5e3b9e6d81_m.jpg

 

In all seriousness, I hope he does right the ship. But I am VERY happy this move was made. He was becoming almost an automatic loss every time it was his turn. I hope Melvin can work out a deal for Bedard or Lee by the time we need a 5th guy.

[lukevan]

TheCrew --

So you think Manny will never be a good major league pitcher then? In one sentence, you say that guys have different mental abilities, implying that Parra doesn't have what it takes mentally, but then you say Fritz Shurmur gets more out of talent than most, implying that a certain way of coaching improves mental ability. So which is it? Can't players DEVELOP the mental acuity to succeed?

Surely Manny has shown that he CAN get ML hitters out and he has put up great performances. All Ennder has been pointing out is that you, me or any other Brewer fan can't make a stark determination that Manny's mental ability will never allow him to be a good MLB pitcher. Sure we can speculate about it and form our opinions, but others are allowed to disagree with those opinions.

I pitched all four years I was in high school and a little in college also, so I understand your point about aiming/mechanics; we all know that aiming is bad. I'm sure you're a great coach but even the best minds in the game can't predict exactly which guys will flame out in the minors and which will make it. Lots of pitchers have been left for dead and come back to have great careers.

Your constant berating of Ennder's viewpoint is growing tiresome.

EDIT: formatting

[Ennder]

Actually Parra has been throwing strikes it is just that when he throws his strikes they are nearly right down the middle of the plate

 

Ok I should rephrase it, the ball is not going where he wants it to. Early in the year he was missing off the plate, lately he is missing on the plate.

 

Your arrogance is astounding, there's no better way to put it.

 

I only see one arrogant poster here...

 

You are the one that is saying it is obviously just a mental problem and it can't possibly be anything else. He is just mentally weak end of story that is the only problem with him. Just because I don't think his problems are just mental and just because I don't believe body language tells the whole story doesn't make me arrogant. Manny Parra's body language was 100% the exact same last season and he was very effective, his body language isn't making him have problems locating. This isn't some unique issue where Parra is different than everyone else, he is just another young pitcher having problems locating pitches.

 

The recent struggles might be a mental thing, I can buy that much since he knew his job was on the line. But Parra hasn't commanded his pitches all year and it isn't just because he is mentally weak and just wants to roll up into a little ball and cry to mamma, I'm not buying that for a second.

[Tbadder]

This is the central argument of this forum. Stats vs observation. When these two viewpoints lack balance the truth gets lost--and it goes both ways. Stat guys howl for proof; observation guys claim "it's plain as day". In this case I think the observation guys knew a lot sooner that despite all the stats that Parra has been heading for a fall, that he lacks confidence, and the ability to handle pressure. He's been short-arming his pitches for a long time now and the guy's just shell-shocked plain and simple. Now having said all that there have been plenty of times that the stat guys have pointed out "don't get too euphoric or too depressed, the numbers say..." And they've been dead on, and I'm glad for their input, it's invaluable. It's rationality vs. empiricism, DesCartes vs. Locke argument and it's never gonna stop. Lets get used to it.

[tyguy20204]

TheCrew07 wrote:Your arrogance is astounding, there's no better way to put it.

Despite what you may think, there do exist opinions different than yours, opinions that are equally as valid as any that you have posited. Just because a poster hasn't pitched or coached baseball - which is an assumption that you've so benevolently seen fit to share with us - doesn't make their opinion any less valid. Frankly, if coaching baseball makes a person wiser, or playing baseball makes a person wiser, someone needs to tell Dusty Baker and Joe Morgan, because they missed the memo.

 

Anyways, I do agree with you that Parra's problems are a combination of mental and physical components. This is true of many things in life, not just sports.

 

Parra isn't throwing strikes, has nothing at all to do with his mental state, it is a physical thing like with every other pitcher who can't throw strikes.

 

I don't mean to cherry pick, because in other posts you've admitted that some of Parra's problems can be attributed to a mental component, but I would definitely take issue with this statement. Yes, the final outcome of his pitching delivery is a physical thing, but it's the mental component that informs his delivery and causes the inconsistency. The only way there would not be a mental component involved is if he was struggling with an injury of some kind, and that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

You really do seem to be underestimating the mental component, not just in baseball, but in life in general.

 

Edit- Great post, Tbadder. Well put.

[Ennder]

I don't mean to cherry pick, because in other posts you've admitted that some of Parra's problems can be attributed to a mental component, but I would definitely take issue with this statement

 

That's fine, the statement probably was too strong. I meant it more as a global comment in that I don't think he has failed to throw strikes all season just because of his mental state but I can see how it looks outside of my internal thought process and yeah it was a bit too strong.

[joepepsi]

If Parra can't get it together you're gonnna see Bedard in a Brewers uniform right after the 4th of July.

[pebadger]

I'm in no hurry to see Parra back up with the big team this season. Not because of any ill will toward Manny, but because I dont' think that his problems are going to be amenable to a fix of a short-term nature. If Manny is back up, it's probably because of an injury to another guy in the rotation, and that's is probably the death knell for the season. Certainly a key moment in this season, no matter how this turns out. in the longer term.