Cubs lineup from your point of view

[The Heartbreak Yid]

One relief pitcher is going to break the Cubs? He's only going to pitch at MOST 100 innings. I'd say Rich Harden and Zambrano's health is far more important to the Cubs than Marmol.

Ummm...yes! Have you seen the Cubs' bullpen overall, or the way he is used? From an impact standpoint, it would be the equivalent of Hoffman becoming very ineffective for the Brewers...maybe worse. Forces everyone else to have to do things they probably are not cut out for. When he doesn't pitch well, that team is bad.

 

Of course Zambrano, Dempster are important, but my point is, if Marmol isn't Marmol, none of that matters because the Cubs are already cooked.

 

Im not going to lie, the way Marmol has been this year, if it werent for Angel Guzman finally steping up after years of hype and injuries, the pen would be screwed. The thing about Marmol is he isnt trashed. He still has his stuff. When he gets the ball over the plate, even the best hitters end up looking foolish. Hopefully its just a phase like the one he went through last July.

[naivin]

Let's say you're a Cub fan. If you had to choose between Carlos Marmol being ineffective and Carlos Zambrano being a replacement level starter (i.e. turn into Suppan) for the Cubs, which would you choose?

 

EDIT: On that note, here's the Brewer equivalent of that statement:

 

Let's say you had to choose between Trevor Hoffman being ineffective and Gallardo turning into Suppan. Which would you choose?

Again, completely missing the point...Who said anything about choosing (besides you)? If either one happens, they're done. The reason I brought up Marmol is that it is already happening. He's been pretty lousy this year. If he doesn't turn it around, the rest of it doesn't matter.

[cwolf2012]

I completely disagree. Zambrano going down would hurt them a LOT more than Marmol. Marmol is going to be worth at most 2 wins if he pitches great all year. That can be recovered reasonably easily. If Zambrano pitches like he has, he's worth 2 wins at minimum.

 

Marmol going down would hurt them, but it would absolutely not be the end of the season for them. It takes far far more than losing one good reliever to cripple a team. Relievers just don't pitch enough innings to be worth all that much in terms of wins.

 

EDIT: And the point of the hypothetical is to attempt to see if you honestly believe a reliever is just as valuable as a starter. If I can get you to admit that the starter is more valuable, it becomes more an argument of showing how they can recover the loss of Marmol since it's not as significant as you made it seem..

[naivin]

Never said losing Zambrano (for example) would not hurt more. Nor did I say a reliever was as valuable as a starter. Not sure why you are trying to put all of those words in my mouth, unless you are simply trying to make some point I am not attempting to argue. If you watch the Cubs at all, you will realize that Marmol (aka Lou's security blanket) stinking would hurt enough. That's my point, and its really not complicated. If this particular reliever, Carlos Marmol, does not pitch well for the Cubs, that is, as he has the past couple years, the Cubs are done.

[cwolf2012]

I completely disagree with the statement that if Marmol stinks, the Cubs are immediately removed from contention ("the Cubs are done"). I guess we'll have to leave it at that.

 

EDIT: I also never said you thought losing Zambrano would hurt them more, but you did say that if any of Harden, Zambrano or Marmol perform poorly, then the "Cubs are done." That sounds like something near an equivalence statement. I was making the point that Harden and Zambrano are significantly more likely to make them "done" than Marmol. That's not the complete argument, though. The next step is to show how much more replaceable Marmol is due to his role, and how they can still win 90 games without Marmol. Forest for the trees.

[Tbadder]

I wonder if Tbadder means any short player. We could call it the Eckstein Effect.

 

Exactly! I wonder if my doctor can give me anything.