Parra & Escobar for Cliff Lee & DeRosa?

[GormanHarvey]

While watching Indians highlights on Quick Pitch this morning this popped into my head and seemed to make some sense. Cleveland wants to unload payroll and stockpile some young inexpensive talent. Just a thought but I would be much more in favor of this than whatever it would take to get Peavy...

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

I love Lee, but that's alot to give up for a half year of DeRosa and 1.5 years of Lee. If we had Hardy signed out 4 years I could see it. At least Peavy is signed for several years...although certainly not at a discount like Lee.

[endaround]

Trading Parra kills off the Brewers chances for years. In 2011 that means 4! starters would need to be replaced.

[nate82]

I'm just going to copy and paste what I said in the other thread because Lee's option is very cheap for Cleveland next year.

 

I don't believe Lee is on the block at all no matter what ESPN and other news outlets say about him being on the block. A $9m team option for next year for Cleveland is very cheap and they will be competitive next year in a very weak AL Central I don't see why they should or would trade Lee. This is not Sabathia where Cleveland knows he is going to be gone next year. Cliff Lee has a very inexpensive team option for next year and it would be silly for Cleveland to trade him away with that cheap of an option.

[804Sox]

On the other hand, the return on Lee will be much greater if they trade him now. Look not farther than the difference between what ATL gave up for Tex and what they recieved from the Angels just a year later. The A's also maximized their return on Dan Haren by trading him while he was still signed to a reasonable contract for a while. With CC gone, Carmona struggling, and Hafner looking done, that leaves Sizemore, Lee, and a bunch of young kids. Why not blow it up completely now?

 

Cleveland could get an unbelievable package of prospects for Lee and Sizemore, and with the stable of young players they've got in the minors and majors already, they could be formidable in a couple years.

 

Don't know why more teams don't use the Marlin's model . . .

[Hate those Rodents]

I personally don't really see the need for DeRosa, while fully aware that he's versatile and a helpful bat. I think we are just fine in the IF. Maybe by taking DeRosa out of this deal, we could try and get just Lee for Parra and something slighltly lesser than Escobar.

[TooLiveBrew]

On the other hand, the return on Lee will be much greater if they trade him now.

 

While this is true, the Indians may (rightly so) be looking at retaining Lee to compete in both this season & next. They just don't have the same need to make a trade that Texas did with Teixeira imho.

[nate82]

On the other hand, the return on Lee will be much greater if they trade him now. Look not farther than the difference between what ATL gave up for Tex and what they recieved from the Angels just a year later. The A's also maximized their return on Dan Haren by trading him while he was still signed to a reasonable contract for a while. With CC gone, Carmona struggling, and Hafner looking done, that leaves Sizemore, Lee, and a bunch of young kids. Why not blow it up completely now?

 

Cleveland could get an unbelievable package of prospects for Lee and Sizemore, and with the stable of young players they've got in the minors and majors already, they could be formidable in a couple years.

 

Don't know why more teams don't use the Marlin's model . . .

Let me flip this on you. I don't see the need for the Red Sox to have Lars Anderson, Clay Bucholz, or Justin Masterson they should just trade them for Holiday and other pieces to win a World Series now. I also don't see the reason why the Red Sox have David Ortiz stinking up the joint they should just DFA him now.

 

Do you see how arrogant that sounded? Trading Lee and Sizemore is a very bad idea. If you want attendance like the Marlins then sure go ahead and trade away Lee and Sizemore. You don't trade your two best players just to trade them. Sizemore is going to be good for a long time and the Indians have him for awhile now they don't need to even think about trading him. Plus with Lee you are going to get a lot but are you going to be able to get what Lee is worth next year?

 

Lee has a cheap option and Cleveland shouldn't be looking to trade him. Lee is signed to a small contract.

 

The reason why teams don't use the Marlins aproach is because it is way to extreme. You will just kill your attendance by doing that. The Marlins in my opinion have the worst strategy and the Twins actually have the best strategy of all the teams. Yes the Marlins have won two world series but I would take a year in and year out being competitive over two world series wins and a lot of mediocrity and you are just wondering when your favorite player is going to be traded to the Red Sox, Yankees, or any other big market team. The Twins really do have the winning strategy not the Marlins.

[JohnBriggs12]

Trading Parra kills off the Brewers chances for years. In 2011 that means 4! starters would need to be replaced.

It's a lot tougher replacing 2 starters named Sabathia and Sheets than it is replacing 4 starters named Suppan, Parra, Looper and Bush. That's assuming none are replaced prior to that which is a very large assumption.

 

I said in another thread one huge reason to give McGehee the everyday job at 2B is the potential to add to your list of tradeable pieces or give you the option of parting with arby eligible everyday players to free up money to pay pitchers.

 

Bottom line is we have no idea if Parra will still be in the big leagues come 2011.

[Invader3K]

Trading Parra kills off the Brewers chances for years.

I refuse to believe this. I don't see how trading a guy who is currently our number five starter is possibly going to kill off all playoff hopes for years to come.

[endaround]

Because the Brewers need to replace 3 starters in 2 years already. Trading Parra for Lee makes it 4. The Brewers have maybe one internally who could be ready by 2011 if Green keeps it going. The Brewers can't get that many starters in FA. So you have to throw up NRIs constantly against the wall at that point.

[TheCrew07]

I don't know about years but trading a high ceiling player like Parra, regardless what you expect of him down the road, means that the rotation is Yo and 4 very average pitchers both in talent and production and those other 4 pitchers will cost roughly 40 mil of a 90 mil payroll. Now if Cody, Jones, Braddock, and Rogers end up as 4.25 ERA starters or better then we're all set, but wait, we should trade them too because they've never done anything... The Brewers will never be able to build around veteran players from outside the organization. Hopefully we start locking up some of our young position talent and build around them, but in no way will the Brewers remain competitive if they try to build the way many people keep suggesting they should. Realistically maybe 2 of the 4 guys I listed become good starters, I would love it if all 4 would succeed but I doubt it.

 

If you're a large market team you trade prospects for proven players and grab headlines. If you're a small market team you spin players only when you have to or when surplus presents itself because the farm system is your life blood. People keep trying to apply the large market model to the Brewers and it just doesn't work.

 

The Brewers replaced Sheets with Yo and Sabathia was a rental, I'm not sure why it's common practice to cite him as an irreplaceable loss when that's the very definition of a rental player, it goes without saying. Maybe there was false hope that he'd be retained by the Brewers? The Brewers took their shot, lets get past that and focus on building the best possible team, instead of worrying about the best possible player at a certain position. Make all of the contracts and all of the pieces fit, not only for 2009, but '10, '11, and so on... that's what Melvin is trying to do, in addition to winning now...

 

FA pitching is the absolute worst market there is for the Brewers to play in, and yet every year there are people that expect a splash... learn from the past... Suppan and Looper are very average back of the rotation starters, and that's all the Brewers can realistically afford. Spending large sums of money on the bullpen makes even less sense, I'd much rather pay the Cameron's of the world to be 4 wins above replacement than pay even the best bullpen arms to be 1.5 to 2.0, there's simply no value in high priced bullpen pitchers, especially since they tend to be closers.

 

The Brewers need young pitching, and really they need to hoard it until they get some home grown stability in the rotation, then they can pick and choose who to send away if they have surplus, like Atlanta has done over the years. The biggest difference is that the ATL can actually afford to pony up cash for the top market FAs here and there. If I had to guess though I bet they regret the Teixeira trade, Feliz would look awfully good in that rotation next year and Tex never put them over the top. The question that needs to be answered here is are the Brewers ever going to compete for the top FAs in baseball? If not, they won't be to give up affordable cost controlled players. If so, then you can dump prospects and take on additional salary hoping to replace those losses through FA.

 

I just don't see it.

[Invader3K]

So much can happen between now and then. The Brewers could trade Fielder after next season for MLB ready pitching, for example. Or maybe they trade Hardy this winter for pitching. You never know at this point.

 

I guess to add to that, it seems like some of you seem to think the Brewers are still in rebuilding mode. We were sold on this four-five year "window of opportunity", which most people feel will realistically close after next season, when the Brewers will have to restock. I would rather see the Brewers go all out this year and possibly next season, and then if they have to rebuild and be near the bottom of the division for a couple years following, then so be it. At least we'll actually have tried to win something.

[TooLiveBrew]

Do you see how arrogant that sounded?

 

I really didn't get any hint of arrogance out of 804Sox's post. He made the argument that the Indians are not in a position to compete in the near future (not saying I agree), and that he thinks the Tribe should maximize their return instead of waiting too long & getting burned. He provided a few examples as support.

 

 

Lee has a cheap option and Cleveland shouldn't be looking to trade him. Lee is signed to a small contract.

 

While I agree that the Tribe shouldn't be trading Lee just to trade him, if the right offer comes & the plan is to deal him sometime soon anyway, why wait? I'd have to guess that the Indians have a fanbase that understands the value of building from within since they had so much success in the late 90s/early 00s with that gameplan.

 

Imo a better example of your 'trading to trade' is the Pirates dealing McLouth, but maybe the Bucs felt the offer from ATL is about the best they'd see for him.

[RobertR]

Or, you could always sign Bush to an extension and get a young pitching prospect in return when you eventually move a Fielder, Hardy, Escobar, Hart, Weeks, etc. It's not like Suppan is going to be that hard to replace given his contract to performance.

 

I think it's a mistake to just concentrate on one talent area of the Brewers and their farm system. Trades are made all the time. Heck, maybe we should wait until after this year's draft when one of the goals is to restock the system. And, even then, if one of the costs of contending is that you eventually have to rebuild, it's still better to have contended for a time rather than to be like the Pirates. Heck, Lee might even be the difference between contending and the World Series, which is something that needs to be considered at this part of the Brewers "success cycle".

 

Obviously, there's a price where you say "no thanks", but you can't just look at the cost, you have to look at the potential benefit too.

 

Robert

[PeaveyFury]

Because the Brewers need to replace 3 starters in 2 years already. Trading Parra for Lee makes it 4. The Brewers have maybe one internally who could be ready by 2011 if Green keeps it going. The Brewers can't get that many starters in FA. So you have to throw up NRIs constantly against the wall at that point.

 

It seems fairly unreasonable to assume that the Brewers won't be able to re-sign any of them at that point.

[endaround]

Looper and Suppan are likely done after the Brewers and they shouldn't want Bush back given a normal market. That leaves the potential Lee and they likely couldn't afford him.

[trwi7]

Looper and Suppan are likely done after the Brewers and they shouldn't want Bush back given a normal market. That leaves the potential Lee and they likely couldn't afford him.

Is it really that hard to replace Suppan though. I'm pretty sure Nick Green, Chase Wright or Tim Dillard could come up and be what Suppan is now.

[nate82]

I really didn't get any hint of arrogance out of 804Sox's post. He made the argument that the Indians are not in a position to compete in the near future (not saying I agree), and that he thinks the Tribe should maximize their return instead of waiting too long & getting burned. He provided a few examples as support.

 

It is arrogant to suggest blowing up the Indians especially trading Sizemore that would be like someone coming onto here and saying the Brewers should trade Braun if the Brewers were in the same position as the Indians are in right now. You don't trade someone you have control of for a long time like Sizemore or Braun especially when they are still young and in their prime especially when there is a long time before the Indians should even think about trading Sizemore.

[DHonks]

I'd still be interested in Sowers at this point. Youngish lefty that has shown some glimpses.

[PeaveyFury]

Looper and Suppan are likely done after the Brewers and they shouldn't want Bush back given a normal market. That leaves the potential Lee and they likely couldn't afford him.

 

So that means they'd be clearing something around 20-25 million off the payroll from the first three- I find it hard to believe that they couldn't either retain Lee or find a couple of solid starters for that money.

 

Not to mention that at that point they'll have to make some decisions on Fielder and/or Hardy as well, so there's a strong possibility that they'd get some good arms back for them as well.

[Invader3K]

Exactly. It's not an either/or proposition like endaround is trying to lay out.

 

Also, as I've said before, no one around here actually knows what the Brewers' payroll will ultimately be.

[804Sox]

It is arrogant to suggest blowing up the Indians especially trading Sizemore that would be like someone coming onto here and saying the Brewers should trade Braun if the Brewers were in the same position as the Indians are in right now. You don't trade someone you have control of for a long time like Sizemore or Braun especially when they are still young and in their prime especially when there is a long time before the Indians should even think about trading Sizemore.

I had forgotten that Sizemore had signed a contract buying out his arbitration years, so I rescind my call for him to be traded (just as I would never advocate Braun or Longoria or Pedroia being traded that early into their club-friendly contracts), but otherwise stand by my previous position, and most humbly . . .

 

Cleveland has a lot of deals expiring by '10 (55 mil), including after club options:

 

2009

- DeRosa (5.5 mil)

- Luis Vizcaino (3.5 mil)

- Jamey Carol (2.5 mil)

- Carl Pavano (1.5 mil)

- Greg Aquino (1 mil)

 

2010

- Jake Westbrook (11 mil)

- Kerry Wood if he doesn't finish 55 games in either fot he next 2 years, otherwise vesting option for '11 (10.5 mil)

- Cliff Lee (8 mil club option will be picked up)

- Victor Martinez (7 mil club option will be picked up)

- Rafael Batancourt (5.4 mil club option will be picked up)

 

The only players under contract beyond 2010 are Hafner, Sizemore, Peralta ('11 club option), and Carmona. If I am in the Indians front office, I recognize that my window has closed with the group of players currently under contract, and trade off as many as possible to return as much value as possible to my organization before the value of my assets depreciate, which they will.

 

Specifically, I'd try to get as much as possible for Cliff Lee, Victor Martinez, DeRosa, Carol, Wood, and Pavano. If another team were generous enough to take on the contracts of Westbrook, Hafner, or Carmona I'd be extatic.

 

None of the above players are likely to be resigned, meaning that none would be able to contribute to a Cleveland Indians team with championship aspirations. Where is the arrogance in maximizing return on depreciating assets? Cleveland could tank before the draft, amass a boatload of prospects (like Texas with the Texeira trade, Oakland after unloading the big 3, Harden, Haren, etc., Baltimore trading Bedard, Florida numerous times), build around Sizemore, LaPorta, Shoppach, Garko, Choo, Francisco, Cabrera, and Santana, AND free up the payroll to make a run at young, cornerstone FAs (Mauer or Holliday, for example) at a time when other teams are reluctant to spend.

 

It would be wiser, you think, to hold on to overpriced-FA-to-be like Lee and Martinez (who is a really good hitter, but can barely play catcher NOW) until they'll only return .40 on the dollar or only compensation picks in FA, all the while hurting the team's draft position and spending more money?

[nate82]

Lee for next year is very cheap and will bring as much in return in a trade next year as he will this year. $8 million dollar starting pitcher at the caliber of Lee don't grow on trees. It would be foolish to trade Lee this year for the Indians. I don't see many pitchers in the Indians organization that look to be ready next year so keeping Lee and not spending the money on free agents next year is a better option. Plus the AL Central is very weak and they could win it and keeping a competitive team on the field is all you can ask for as a fan realistically.

 

The AL central will be wide open for the taking next year and is still wide open right now I don't see anyone in that division running away with it. The Indians still have a chance at competing this year and next year it is foolish to dump one of your best pitchers just to trade him. I still believe the Twins strategy is the best way to go when building a team trade only when you absolutely have to Johan Santana. The Twins were probably better off taking the compensation picks than what they got in return in that trade though.

 

Carmona is only 25 years old I don't see why the Indians should panic with him he is still very young. Carmona is probably not as good as his 2007 year and he is not as bad as his 2008 and current year. 2007 was his first full year as a starter in the majors so I'm not gonna take to much stock into those numbers. Like Parra, Carmona is still young and will be around for a long time yet I don't see why the Indians would trade Carmona away either he looks to be a good #3 or #4 pitcher definitely not a 3.00 ERA type pitcher though more along the lines of 3.60-4.00 ERA.

[TooLiveBrew]

Yes... not arrogant to make an innocent mistake.