McLouth to Braves

[Thurston Fluff]

No he's the poster boy for why Gold Gloves are given to bats and not gloves. Everything measures him to be a win below average in CF.

 

Granted GG are a joke but I think him getting a gold glove even though the measurements say he is a win below average says as much about the measurements as it does the gold glove standard. Neither tell us much IMO.

[cwolf2012]

He got a gold glove because of the throw he made in the allstar game and because of his bat. The guy is not a good CF.

[JJHardy7]

He got a gold glove because of the throw he made in the allstar game and because of his bat. The guy is not a good CF.

 

There's no way this is true. If it was about the bat, Braun would've received a GG. A guy that's playing in a small market that has a plus bat (ie not a Braun bat) just doesn't scream 'poster boy' to me. There are a lot of other players that didn't get it that would've been a 'poster boy'. I'm not saying he is or isn't GG caliber...I am saying it's not right to flat out call him a bad CF and assume that the Pirates are so big with the national media that it's a slam dunk that he got it because of his bat. That doesn't make sense IMO. CF might not be his ideal position, but I would take him anyday in the OF.

 

I'm going to guess he won the aware because of his fielding percentage and some voters really liked his arm. I don't think he's a 'true' GG player, but when it comes to defense in the OF I think it's fair to try and judge that by actually watching him play. I'm going to guess that most here (including me) haven't watched a ton of Pirates games when they're not playing the Brewers. I think Nate and Braun are somewhat similar defensive players. Depending on how the OF is next year, I'd still take him on my team. Ideally though, CF is probably not his best position.

[cwolf2012]

He got it because he made a great play in one of the games with the highest exposure. That's enough to put you on the radar. Once you're on the radar, that's all you need.

 

Braun didn't have that great of a bat last year. Not to say it was bad or anything like that, but he didn't hit the ball nearly as well as it seems. He also didn't make any flashy plays that get you noticed by the voters.

 

The absolute most important thing is to make one great play in a clutch situation and then a couple more great plays. You don't have to actually be good to win a GG, you just need to get noticed and then hit well.

[JJHardy7]

He got it because he made a great play in one of the games with the highest exposure. That's enough to put you on the radar. Once you're on the radar, that's all you need.

 

I guess I don't buy that one bit, but that's my opinion. Again, I'm not saying he deserved the GG. Most here complain how the national media gives no coverage/respect to a small market...then they do and it's because the guy has a 'bat'. I don't get it. Do you have any quotes from voters stating that's why they voted for him? He does have a pretty good arm, but that arm was around all year and not just on one play. The play most likely helped him, but I don't think it made him.

 

Braun didn't have that great of a bat last year. Not to say it was bad or anything like that, but he didn't hit the ball nearly as well as it seems. He also didn't make any flashy plays that get you noticed by the voters.

 

If it was truly about a bat, Braun beats Nate IMO. Especially the way the season ended last year.

 

The absolute most important thing is to make one great play in a clutch situation and then a couple more great plays. You don't have to actually be good to win a GG, you just need to get noticed and then hit well.

 

I guess I don't agree with that. I think it's important to get a reputation. I'll admit the award isn't handed out to the player(s) that always deserve it. I think it's similar to all-star games. Once you get in and fans like you...you'll almost always be voted in whether or not you're having a great year. Even if Nate did get the vote for one play my point is that he's not terrible. I'm not saying 'hey we could've got a GG OF with a bat'. I'm saying I wouldn't have minded going after him since our OF right now isn't set past this year besides Braun IMO and Nate has a pretty decent contract. I'd have been all for extending Cam, getting Nate, and trading Hart, but obviously the Pirates weren't looking for a Hart type player.

[endaround]

He made a handful of flashy plays. He was the best player on the Pirates, Beltran and Victorino got theirs anyway and Cameron missed a month. So it was him or who? The only other CFers to hit were Kemp and Ross (maybe Shumaker) who only played CF 2/3rds the time and therefore couldn't be good.

[Ennder]

I think Palmeiro pretty much proved how terrible the gold glove voting is when he won one after only 28 games at 1B and the rest as a DH, Jeter as well for a whole different reason of having no range and winning one because he is flashy.

 

In McLouth's case it was probably mostly because the NL didn't have very many full time CF last season and they give almost all OF gold gloves to a CF. Though he is a bit flashy as well, he gets weak reads on balls and doesn't have as much range as some CF but he made a lot of tumbling impressive looking plays and that is what gets you votes.

[JJHardy7]

He was the best player on the Pirates

 

And your point is.....http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

I think Palmeiro pretty much proved how terrible the gold glove voting is when he won one after only 28 games at 1B and the rest as a DH, Jeter as well for a whole different reason of having no range and winning one because he is flashy.

 

I agree here. Would it make more sense to have the players/coaches vote for the winners? Obviously having some type of rule that you couldn't vote for players on your team.

[joepepsi]

The problem is they can vote for anybody and no one needs a majority vote to win. I forget who originally came up with this, but I like the idea of two tiered voting. Sort of like the Academy Awards. First round selects 4-5 top vote getters as nominees. Next round picks between nominees. That's a good way to avoid situations like Palmeiro's.

[endaround]

He was the best player on the Pirates

 

And your point is.....http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

I think Palmeiro pretty much proved how terrible the gold glove voting is when he won one after only 28 games at 1B and the rest as a DH, Jeter as well for a whole different reason of having no range and winning one because he is flashy.

 

I agree here. Would it make more sense to have the players/coaches vote for the winners? Obviously having some type of rule that you couldn't vote for players on your team.

 

Not sure your point here. You want to add players to teh voters? The award is so screwed up because managers and coaches vote for it.

[Ennder]

BPro made a pretty good comment about this entire deal and that was that he was valued in the trade as if he were poor defensively instead of a gold glove CF. If people really bought into him being a plus defender in CF it would have taken more to get him. They said that this could be a turning point in the industry. They also mentioned that Dan Fox is working with the Pirates which I guess points to why they properly valuated his defense.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

Fangraphs had a similar take.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-mclouth-deal

 

 

"Despite winning a gold glove last season, the glove isn't as valuable. McLouth has consistently ranked as a below average defensive center fielder, compiling a -10.6 UZR/150 over his career. He's a corner outfielder playing out of position in center, but he's not an atrocity out there. He'll let some balls fall in that you wished he could have got to, but he'll make up for with the bat."

[Invader3K]

http://kdka.com/sports/pirates/Pirates.fan.Nate.2.1031398.html

 

Good summary of the situation including some quotes from Pirates fans.

[JJHardy7]

Again, I'm not saying he's a GG. My point is he could've played in the Brewers OF next year. I think he's a bit more suite to play RF. It's not like the Brewers have a ton of options next year besides Braun.

 

Not sure your point here. You want to add players to teh voters? The award is so screwed up because managers and coaches vote for it.

 

I would have a tiered system of players/managers/coaches and maybe some media type. There should be a way to fix this problem.

[endaround]

Having coaches and players vote is the problem. They see very little of the games. You could have teams' scouting departments vote on it. I'd be fine with McLouth in RF, the point is going from Cam to McLouth in CF would be like a 3 win swing in defense. It would be ugly.

[Ennder]

His defense is probably about the same as Hart's only he can throw runners out with his arm as well. I don't know if it is poor arm strength or just poor accuracy but Hart is pretty terrible at holding runners or throwing them out.

[JJHardy7]

Having coaches and players vote is the problem. They see very little of the games. You could have teams' scouting departments vote on it. I'd be fine with McLouth in RF, the point is going from Cam to McLouth in CF would be like a 3 win swing in defense. It would be ugly.

 

Oh it wouldn't be ideal, but I'd rather have that as an option. If we got him now, at worst he'd be at CF next year. Hopefully there would be more moves to get him to RF.

 

His defense is probably about the same as Hart's only he can throw runners out with his arm as well. I don't know if it is poor arm strength or just poor accuracy but Hart is pretty terrible at holding runners or throwing them out.

 

In your opinion, is this evidence enough Hart should be moved?

[Invader3K]

More Pirate fan hatred of this trade.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

The Pirates really erred by not hiring Jack Z when they had the chance. I miss Jack and sure am glad he's in the AL and not our division. He would have been the perfect hire for them.

[Invader3K]

Actually, given what the Pirates got in return, it might not have been a terrible move for them. But given how many of their top guys they have traded in recent years, it just really looks bad and isn't exactly going to help the already bad attendance at PNC.

[AdvantageSchneider]

The timing is a little surprising too. They are 24-28 and that's playing without one of their better players in Doumit. I thought there was a lot of talk in spring training about having a winning season this year so they wouldn't set the record for most consecutive years below .500. I guess that was all talk.

[phxMILWfan]

More Pirate fan hatred of this trade.

 

Now they have convinced themselves that they got the better end of the deal.

[Diskono]

At least they didnt trade him to the Cubs for Hee Seop Choi and Kenny Lofton.

Or Bobby Hill!

I'm not saying he's a stud in CF, but how in the world does a Pirate get a GG if he's that bad?

Because he dives on routine plays.

[Daubs]

At least they didnt trade him to the Cubs for Hee Seop Choi and Kenny Lofton.

Or Bobby Hill!

I'm not saying he's a stud in CF, but how in the world does a Pirate get a GG if he's that bad?

Because he dives on routine plays.

Just like the Marlin defenders - they make the ordinary look spectacular.

 

That's in stark contrast to Cameron who makes 90% of his stuff look simply routine. Anyone see that catch he made (I think 8th inning) where he was turned around a few times while going straight back? Good stuff......

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

Cameron is amazing and he rarely has to lay out for a highlight reel catch. That one he had in the 8th was incredible and he did it so effortlessly. He probably gets the ball that Gamel dropped in front of McLouth last night (although to be fair he was playing him in right center)...he broke late and didn't have the speed to get to it. Olney had a little clip saying the Pirates wanted to trade him while his defensive value was high. Probably just PR from the Pirates at this point since it seemed the Braves properly valued his average defense.