What is the deal with Manny Parra?

[PrinceEatMeat]

Let him pitch his next start and go from there. If he struggles in his next start, skip the next one and let him work out of the pen for a bit. We have an off day and the rest of the pitchers would go on normal rest. He was streaky within games last year where he would be ok then "lose it" for a few batters. Seems magnified a bit this year.

That plan doesn't work, because his next start is Sunday, and the off day is Monday. That means his spot would still come up at the regular time, and couldn't be skipped. His spot would be right away on Saturday.

[NievesNoNO]

I agree with the notion that he doesn't quite have a hold on who he is as a pitcher or at least he's forgot what got him to this point. He's falling behind almost every hitter. That by itself is enough to set him up for failure. I do think some time in Nashville maybe with a little less pressure would do him some good. He looks like he just needs to start from the beginning again. Throw strikes, be aggressive, blah, blah blah. Kind of the token thing to say, but sometimes it's easier said than done.

 

His overall stuff is probably the best on the team, but there have been plenty of pitchers who throw hard and have good stuff that never amounted to much. Here's to hoping Manny finds himself for the second half play-off push!

[trwi7]

Manny seems to have little ability to repeat what he's doing well while forgetting about what he's done wrong. This consistently occurs from inning to inning and even batter to batter. He looked great in the first inning and then he gives up the dinger to Uggla and his entire demeanor changed. You could almost see the confidence leave him on the mound, and his body language and facial expression said it all as he walked back to the dugout that inning.

I agree. They were actually talking about this on the broadcast tonight. In the first inning, Manny wouldn't wait more than 10 seconds after he got the ball back from Kendall to throw the next pitch. Then in the 2nd inning and through the rest of the game he was waiting, he would hold the ball, step off the mound, wait some more. It seems like he's just thinking too much out there.

 

I agree with those who would send him to Nashville. As for the replacement. Does it really matter? If they can give 5 innings at a 6 ERA, are they any worse than Parra right now?

[Ennder]

I'd be fine with sending him down if they think Dillard is major league ready but I don't think today was really the reason to send him down. He got sabotaged a bit by Kendalls poor defense early(sorry but neither wild pitch really should have been a WP). He mostly threw strikes and quite a number of those hits were seeing eye singles. If he had been solid all year this game would have meant very little in the big picture but since he has massively struggled to throw strikes all year this start stands out and rightfully so. I guess I don't mind if they give him another start and I don't mind if they option him and start someone else. I am very ambivalent to the entire matter.

[logan82]

PrinceEatMeat wrote:

That plan doesn't work, because his next start is Sunday, and the off day is Monday. That means his spot would still come up at the regular time, and couldn't be skipped. His spot would be right away on Saturday.

In that case do nothing. Parra has an extra day to work things out.

[twobrewers]

I still wouldn't trade him for Peavy.

I was in that boat for a long time. I've changed my opinion of the situation.

 

Manny Parra = Newer Version of Jorge De La Rosa (tantalizing lefty who just can't pitch)

 

I'd like to trade him while he still has some value. If Manny Parra is a 6+ ERA pitcher next year - he won't be worth scrap iron.

[Invader3K]

Some around here always want to hold onto young players no matter what, and just hope they somehow turn it around. I don't get it, but that's fine, I guess.

 

I'd rather trade him at this point. I've seen enough. It's becoming clear this rotation is going to need a mid-season upgrade if we're actually going to make the playoffs again. If you can get a good pitcher who will be upgrade over what we have, and have to part with Parra to do it, so be it.

 

We basically have a #1 pitcher, a couple #3/4 guys, a #5 (Suppan), and a guy who shouldn't be in the rotation right now (Parra). That's not going to cut it all season long.

[JohnBriggs12]

I won't dwell on the fact that last winter I was taken to task for suggesting that too much was being expected from Parra. The excuse for his late season failures last year was that he tired out. I didn't buy it then and I don't buy it now. There's no excuse now. Parra's a guy who's good pitches don't get hit in play and who's bad pitches get crushed. That's not a formula for success for a guy who throws both kinds to almost every hitter.

 

He obviously needs to go down to Nashville to work on finding an actual out pitch that hitters will get themselves out on. Right now he's not performing at a replacement level much less at a level of a quality major league starter.

 

Let McClung take his starts for now. Make a move for Bedard or Washburn in a few weeks so they won't have to go all year with 5 righthanded starters. Move Riske or Weeks to 60 man DL and bring up Chris Smith.

[Fatter than Joey]

Parra is beginning to remind me of Cappy's 2007 season, where if anything could go wrong, it did.

 

I don't get the impression that Parra is just going to "work out of it" -- I wouldn't give him to many more MLB starts though.

[FVBrewerFan]

Biggest problem is pitching from the stretch. When there's nobody on base (which isn't very often) he has command over all his pitches- at lest early on in games. But when he has to pitch from the stretch he can't control his off-speed stuff. Then he starts getting hammered, and he mentally strats falling apart. That's my theory. And it's why a trip to Nashville would be perfet. Have him pitch out of the stretch to every batter and work on his mechanics.

 

Frnakly, he's always had bad "body language" that doesn't exactly ooze confidence. I do wonder if he will ever turn his "stuff" into being a consistent and reliable SP.

[Thurston Fluff]

I thought he was going to be one of those breakout types this year. BUC does not predict well. I think some head clearing time in the minors would be in order now. I am slightly worried about is his jump in innings last year. I have no real proof of this but doesn't it seem like some players lose their control then end up injured shortly after. Sometimes we find they have been injured or are fighting through some minor ailment for some time before it was revealed sometimes the loss of control mat lead to it. Given the loss of control and the jump in innings last year maybe he is on the verge of something like that.

[milwaukeesportsfan]

Put me in the "Swap Parra and Dillard" boat. I wouldn't want to take McClung out of the bullpen. He's been too valuable, and I'd hate to see the change mess him up, since he's pitching so well right now.

[Hate those Rodents]

I really hope he does not turn into another Glendon Rusch.

[theavrock]

Some around here always want to hold onto young players no matter what, and just hope they somehow turn it around. I don't get it, but that's fine, I guess.

 

I'd rather trade him at this point. I've seen enough. It's becoming clear this rotation is going to need a mid-season upgrade if we're actually going to make the playoffs again. If you can get a good pitcher who will be upgrade over what we have, and have to part with Parra to do it, so be it.

 

We basically have a #1 pitcher, a couple #3/4 guys, a #5 (Suppan), and a guy who shouldn't be in the rotation right now (Parra). That's not going to cut it all season long.

 

How is that clear? We are 8 games above .500 and in first place in the division. Besides who is going to make a decent trade for a struggling young pitcher? Anything we get will be peanuts. He looked awful last night thats for sure. The thing that is killing him is his walk totals. I think he gets one more start with the clear objective of getting ahead of hitters and throwing strikes. If he shows he can't do that or gets rocked because he is just throwing meat over the plate then send him to Nashville and let him work on it down there. As someone else already said not everyone is like Braun, Prince, Yo etc. Young players especially pitchers go through stuff like this. This is only Manny's second big league season.

[And That]

I doubt Dillard would be much effective a major league starter than Parra is right now... he just doesn't have an out pitch as a starter. What I'd do is send Parra down, call up Chris Smith and move McClung to the rotation.

 

Chris Cody just got the bump to AAA - he's an ultra-soft tosser with results. If he keeps up the results, he could become an option in a few months.

[JohnBriggs12]

Put me in the "Swap Parra and Dillard" boat. I wouldn't want to take McClung out of the bullpen. He's been too valuable, and I'd hate to see the change mess him up, since he's pitching so well right now.

Dillard has allowed a hit an inning at AAA, has a 1-1 K/BB ratio and a WHIP significantly higher than Burns. That doesn't translate to success at major league level.

 

Chris Smith's numbers suggest he's much more likely to have success against major league hitters out of the pen, than Dillard's do starting. So I'd rather replace McClung's bullpen innings with Smith/Burns than Parra's starting innings with Dillard. If you must keep McClung in pen, then go with Burns.

[joepepsi]

Given his injury history I'm worried any day now we're going to hear about Manny's forearm tightness. Or stiffness in the shoulder.

[Ennder]

Young players especially pitchers go through stuff like this. This is only Manny's second big league season.

 

I know people don't want to hear this so I'll back you up with some examples from this season.

 

Andy Sonnastine

Jon Lester

Fausto Carmona

Francisco Liriano

Gavin Floyd

 

All of these guys are young pitchers who have had a good ERA for a full season at some point in their career and are sitting over 5.50 on the season. I don't mind if they send Parra down to work on things but this isn't some huge abnormal thing to have a young pitcher go through a rough stretch. Happens to multiple guys every season.

 

I don't think we need to go into the I told you so's again btw(unless you want to talk about Garlands 5.75 ERA since the person this is directed at wanted to sign him), a lot of people gave those after Suppan's bad start and look foolish now. Takes a lot bigger sample than this to judge a player.

[joepepsi]

The story is in his walk rate. He averaging nearly 6 walks per 9ip. So, it's a command/control issue and hopefully not one precipitated by an injury.

 

On the other hand, 5 of his last 7 starts qualify as QS. But he still walked too many in those games, so a lot of luck and good defense went into the QS. As Ennder pointed out, it's not unusual for young pitchers to struggle with command, especially early in the year. I give a couple more starts to see if he can get rid of the walks.

 

In the meantime start considering what it would take to get Bedard or possibly Peavy or Halladay.....

[Fatter than Joey]

I know people don't want to hear this so I'll back you up with some examples from this season.

 

I think DJ43 was hoping to avoid this sort of discussion -- I guess he was silly for thinking that.

 

All of these guys are young pitchers who have had a good ERA for a full season at some point in their career and are sitting over 5.50 on the season.

 

None of these guys are Manny Parra, and of course we could show all sorts of examples of pitchers that are 26 years old and doing well.

 

I don't mind if they send Parra down to work on things but this isn't some huge abnormal thing to have a young pitcher go through a rough stretch

 

Who said it was abnormal?

 

Happens to multiple guys every season.

 

Obviously. Young players struggle and then teams take some course of action, perhaps they send the player to the minors, perhaps they put the the starter in the BP, they may make a trade, they may keep the player in the rotation, etc., -- meanwhile the fans of said team discuss all of the various options that the team may entertain on message boards much like this.

 

a lot of people gave those after Suppan's bad start and look foolish now.

 

Specifically, who looks foolish regarding Suppan? Until you start showing some numbers of how many people look foolish, I am going to assume that this statement is just hot air.

 

Takes a lot bigger sample than this to judge a player.

 

False. It took 1.2 innings for the world to find out Chris Mabeus sucks.

 

Realistically, teams are not afforded large sample sizes to judge all of their players. The pragmatic fact is that players are going to continue to get playing time based on their results -- some players are going only get 20 ABs, it sucks but teams can also err by giving players more opportunities just to get a larger sample to judge them -- increasing the sample size comes at a risk.

 

I think we all agree Parra is struggling -- no one yet has said "DFA" or "bag of balls", so I think we can discuss what the Brewers should do (doing nothing being one entirely reasonable option) w/o getting into general non-constructive arguments about a perceived panic that does not exist.

[Invader3K]

I agree with FtJ for the most part. I don't necessarily agree doing nothing is a reasonable option at this point, though. I guess I just don't see how one can reasonably expect that Parra won't continue struggling at this point. Last night's start was just that bad. There have to be consequences at this point for continued failure.

[Fatter than Joey]

I don't necessarily agree doing nothing is a reasonable option at this point, though.

 

I think it is, Ennder does point out that the WPs that he threw should probably have been caught -- and I agree with that -- I guess I am trusting that Macha has his finger on the pulse of the situation -- if Parra can't locate pitches -- then he shouldn't be pitching in MLB, if Parra just had a really bad start but can rebound, then he should get more starts.

 

Personally, assuming he is 100% healthy, I would let him start at least 2 more times, and then perhaps find a suitable replacement -- part of the strategy of "doing nothing" is that I am not convinced we have a better option ready to go in Nash.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

While I'm still a longer term believer in Manny, looking at it from the context of the entire rotation makes you wonder what step to take. Going into the year, expectations for Manny ranged from a weak #2 to a strong #4. Soup is perfectly adaquate as a #5, but to contend through the year we can't handle 2 #5s for an extended period of time. Replacing Manny with Dillard or McClung can be perfectly reasonable replacement types, but their upside isn't much beyond a #5 starter. Losing McClung in the pen also hurts since he's been good out there and probably couldn't go deep into a game as a starter putting more stress on the pen. I'm fine seeing what Dillard can do, but I'm not sure he can be considered much of an upgrade over Suppan either so we still would have 2 #5s.

 

Our starting pitching has begun to show some mean reversion over the last couple weeks. If the Brewers are going to contend in 2009 one of two things need to happen with their starting pitching. 1) Fix Manny - either give him a few more starts to work it our here or send him to Nashville for Dillard...it's probably not a huge difference as long as he can come back as a 2/4 type guy or 2) Make a move. The biggest upside scenario would be if they make a move without having to move Manny, and he is able to right himself down the stretch. In that case will they be willing to shelve a pitcher with a $12mm contract? I'm not out to bash Soup, contract aside he is what he is which isn't bad for a fifth starter, but there are scenarios where he could wind up as the obvious #6.

[Invader3K]

I think Tim Dillard might deserve a shot at this point. 3.68 ERA and 1.33 WHIP through 10 starts. That would probably still translate to better stats in the majors than what Parra is showing right now.

[Fatter than Joey]

Losing McClung in the pen also hurts since he's been good out there and probably couldn't go deep into a game as a starter putting more stress on the pen

 

Agreed -- plus I am not sure if Parra would be effective out of the BP. I think if Manny needed to miss a start -- McClung makes sense as a spot starter -- but long term McClung seems pretty sweaty to me.

 

I tend to think looking at a trade may be pretty prudent.