Alcides Escobar

[JJHardy7]

Counsell gets on base 35% of the time, more versus RHP. One look at Hall's production, especially versus RHP, makes him a near emergency only option at 2B. Escobar would probably hit nearly as well at 2B and be a stellar defender...Hall hasn't played 2B to speak of since '06, so his fielding would be average, maybe.

 

Hall is not even playing 3B good enough to justify playing everyday, no way he can play 2B to that level after 3 years away. Hall isn't even an option at 2B.

 

Why isn't he an option? Counsell can't play everyday. He's best playing one or two times a week and being a PH. He's old and playing with a bad knee. I just don't see him putting up a high OBP playing everyday. That leaves Casey at 2B. I'm not knocking Casey...I'm just saying there needs to be more options. If Hall is playing at 3B, he's clearly good enough in the Brewers eyes to play there...same should be the case at 2B. I'm not saying Hall is great. I am saying he it's either him at 2B, Escobar, or a trade long-term unless Casey becomes more of an everyday guy. That shouldn't be Counsell's role at this point in his career.

[TooLiveBrew]

Please stop the misinformation train. Craig Counsell is not a .350+ OBP talent.

[endaround]

He was once upon a time. That was 8 years ago. Against RHP he's a .230/.340/.310 player.

[Never Outhustled]

Please stop the misinformation train. Craig Counsell is not a .350+ OBP talent.

While he was one last year, and he was one in all the years of his career before he started using that rediculous batting stance. Also, its unfair to hold a player to the offensive stats he puts up as a part time player. If you isolate Counsel's stats the last few years to the times when he was getting regular stats, he a much better hitter.

 

I agree Counsel needs a platoon partner, and Escobar is hot in AAA, but so is Adam Heether. He would be the wiser call-up. However, eventually it will be Hall platooning with Counsel.

[JJHardy7]

I agree Counsel needs a platoon partner, and Escobar is hot in AAA, but so is Adam Heether. He would be the wiser call-up. However, eventually it will be Hall platooning with Counsel.

 

Counsell does need a platoon partner and he also needs to be able to give JJ and whoever is at 3B some rest too at times. To me, that says he might not be able to play 2B a lot or we need a 'new' Counsell. I do agree with you on Heether (it's a special day if I actually agree with X http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif ). The Brewers just don't operate in that manner. Being a 'veteran' minor leaguer in the Brewers system now means you're likely to never get called up. I'm not saying that's the right way or wrong way. I just don't think the Brewers have Heether as a guy to move up...it'd be Escobar, the hurricane, etc. I still think (I'm probably in the minority I'm sure), but Heether would make for a pretty good Counsell type replacement next year. He can play pretty much anywhere and can hit a bit, but he's not going to be known for his hitting. I just hope that happens with the Brewers.

[1992casey]

It looks like Escobar's likely headed back to shortstop. It's a bit confusing. Tom Haudricourt writes as if it's a "definite." Doug Melvin's quotes are more like "probably."

 

Escobar going back to short

[TooLiveBrew]

Is there really much significance to the move back, though? I honestly read that and think, 'Good.' They worked him at 2B, and it's no longer a foreign position to him. Unless there's something (horrific) that I missed, it seems like mission accomplished, and now Alcides can go back to being an insanely gifted SS & work on developing his bat.

 

I guess I just never felt the move to 2B was anything but temporary & to give Alcides & the Brewers more flexibility.

 

 

If you isolate Counsel's stats the last few years to the times when he was getting regular stats, he a much better hitter.

 

While I realize that nobody thought that what I had to say about Counsell was particularly incendiary or offensive, I just thought I should respond to (at worst) be polite. First & foremost I want to say that I really am a fan of Counsell. I think what he contributes to this team should not be overlooked or marginalized in the slightest. In addition, by all accounts he's one awesome dude. But like endaround said, it's been a long time since Craig has been able to hit much better than his recent projections. I think his OBP/BB skills are much more polished than nearly every hitter on the 25-man, but his lack of power offsets that to a great extent. He's an indispensable reserve player, and the fact that he bats LH just adds to his value. I hope that makes sense... I really do value what Counsell brings for this team.

[Never Outhustled]

The Brewers just don't operate in that manner. Being a 'veteran' minor leaguer in the Brewers system now means you're likely to never get called up

I don't think I agree with that, as the Brewers just opened the season with veteran minor leaguers Mark Difilice and Brad Nelson on the roster, and Casey McGehee is just 9 months younger than Heether.

 

Heether homered again yesterday, and is carrying a 950 OPS.

[dadofandrew]

Escobar can play 2B, and still will at times. He just won't be playing there as much, is how I read that.

[logan82]

I think turning a double play is much harder for a 2B than it is for a SS. I think Melvin and company probably intended to move Escobar back to primarily SS around this point unless they decided to call him up to play 2B in the majors.

[wibadgers23]

After today's doubleheader, Escobar is hitting .303 with 16 doubles, 2 triples, 2 homeruns, and 22 SB. He has 7 doubles over his last 10 games. He only had 24 doubles all of last year, so it's nice to see his power numbers starting to increase a little bit.

[Hate those Rodents]

Yep, he leads the team in doubles actually. Also second in total bases. Clearly dominating the stolen bases category. The kid is ready if needed (or if a Hardy trade for a stud pitcher is a reality we can accomplish soon).

[jjfanec]

One of the knocks on Escobar the past couple years is that his BABip was unsustainable. How is that number looking this year?

[battlekow]

His BABIP is .347 this year, down from .380 last year. His line drive rate is down a bit, from 19.3 to 17.4, but mostly, it's his infield popups that have come back to earth. His IF/F last year was a miniscule 7.6, while this year it's 13.5, which is in line with his performance outside of 2008. All told, he's not getting that lucky; Minor League Splits' luck adjustment only knocks his BABIP down to .335.

[sbrylski]

One of the knocks on Escobar the past couple years is that his BABip was unsustainable. How is that number looking this year?

.347 not counting today. Last season he had a .380.

 

His LD% is down 2% this year, and he only has 4 bunt hits so far. So based on just that quick glance, I would say even .347 is a tick high, but its close to what his career average BABIP might be. (.320ish-.330ish by my extremely rough estimate.)

 

EDIT: Or, what Kow beat me to posting.

[TooLiveBrew]

I guess when I read posts that look at Escobar's total 2009 line & just say, 'He's ready', I always want to throw up the stop sign. Once Alcides starts handling RHP, then I think he can be declared ready.

[endaround]

Not sure what the huge rush is. He has neither plate discipline nor power at this point. His age 29 season will be much more valuable than his age 23 season anyway so why do people want to rush him?

[brewjihad]

The platoon split for Alcides is a concern, yes, but let's keep it in perspective-- even Hardy's career line is .258/.312/.404 vRHP, and Hart's is .263/.305/.464. He's a little beyond what you'd normally expect for a platoon split, but we shouldn't expect him to be hitting .300 against righties. And as TLB mentioned, that's one reason to keep him at AAA for a while yet. And in terms of BABIP, I did a long story at BCB a while back and eventually concluded that because of a bunch of factors we can expect a .330-.340ish BABIP for him (in the minors, anyway) due to his good rates of contact, rare popouts, frequent bunt hits, and speed.

[JJHardy7]

I don't think I agree with that, as the Brewers just opened the season with veteran minor leaguers Mark Difilice and Brad Nelson on the roster, and Casey McGehee is just 9 months younger than Heether.

 

McGehee wasn't ever in the Brewers minor league system. My point is there have been guys putting up numbers who haven't gotten called up (Steve Bray comes to mind) despite high levels of success during the season (excluding September).

 

IMO they don't normally call up minor league veterans unless there's an injury and I think that's the same case with Heether. He could win a job, but it'd have to be next spring like with Brad Nelson this year.

[TheCrew07]

Not sure what the huge rush is. He has neither plate discipline nor power at this point. His age 29 season will be much more valuable than his age 23 season anyway so why do people want to rush him?

He's been in the minors 5 full seasons, he hasn't been rushed regardless of what people continue to post. His readiness has nothing to do with his Age, MLEs, or projections... people continually confuse development with projections.

[endaround]

No one's saying he's been rushed yet no matter what strawmen you wish to erect. He has a 730 OPS in AAA. That doesn't scream ready, it screams hanging on. He's young so its hardly terrible but he's not Gamel or Weeks or Fielder or even Hardy.

[Invader3K]

Where did anyone put up a straw man? I don't think that was really needed.

[PlayerHader]

Well, his splits against RHP took a jump today with a 3-5 performance with a triple and HR.

 

But I see no need to rush him. If they get good value for JJ, make a deal then bring him up.

[JJHardy7]

He's been in the minors 5 full seasons, he hasn't been rushed regardless of what people continue to post. His readiness has nothing to do with his Age, MLEs, or projections... people continually confuse development with projections.

 

I think I understand where you're coming from TheCrew07 in a way. I just think your point isn't 100% right nor 100% wrong. I don't think there's a 100% flawless way to know when a player is ready or isn't ready. You can only look at it from the Brewers view and what they have in Milwaukee right now and I don't see Escobar starting at most positions with his bat right now regardless of position. To me, that means he's not ready for this team, but again there's no right or wrong way to know IMO.

 

I know he's been in the minors awhile, but I still believe he isn't physically there just quite yet to be ready for the bigs. I still think Escobar is going to be a very good MLB player and I've thought that for a long time. I just don't know how he fits this year on this team.

[TheCrew07]

No one's saying he's been rushed yet no matter what strawmen you wish to erect. He has a 730 OPS in AAA. That doesn't scream ready, it screams hanging on. He's young so its hardly terrible but he's not Gamel or Weeks or Fielder or even Hardy.

Yea he's just barely hanging on alright... Strawman argument? Please... arbitrarily saying he's not ready without giving any support is garbage, and you've said repeatedly there's no reason to rush him. If you're worried about his peak years, then sign the kid to Braun type deal, that's what they should be doing with all the kids in this next crop. Sign them till they are 30 then let them go.

 

You might want to double check your stats next time as well. He's up near .800... and he's been trending positively for a month.

 

He doesn't have to hit like Hardy to be MLB ready, if the expectation for prospects to be ready is all-star level play, then how many prospects are ever "ready"? He's ready right now, but it doesn't mean he's the best option and I would never claim he should play over Hardy. Melvin has admitted he's ready, and Macha's long list of issues were all fairly minor adjustments with the exception of being more selective, and that's not something that will happen over night. Every single article I've read that talks about developing selectivity at the plate says it happens over years not months, but that one facet of his game isn't enough to claim he's not ready, nor is a 2 month sample against RHP.

 

Again, compare Escobar to his peers, not to Hardy, and "ready" is a developmental term that has nothing to do with actual production on the field, those 2 areas will not necessarily go hand in hand. I really don't think people have a good grasp of AAA baseball or player development if they think Escobar will be significantly different player for the brewers in 2011 or 2012 than he is today.

 

Unfortunately for Alcides he doesn't have a spot to play nor will he until one of the 2 get traded, and I don't see Melvin making move for either one. I was hoping with Gamel and Salome producing over Hall and Kendell that Escobar might make sense next season, but Salome's campaign has been extremely disappointing thus far.

 

Next time bring more to the table than a "strawman" whine.