Will Bill Hall ever make adjustments?

[Invader3K]

maybe melvin can work out a "change of scenery" trade. though it would be hard to match up contracts - there has to be someone else out there in a similar situation...

 

Magglio Ordonez? Barry Zito? I don't know...seems like there should be someone we could do a swap with.

[JonnyLungs]

Hardy is OPSing .635. We don't have a thread talking about how he should be replaced.

The biggest difference I can see is that JJ's last good year wasn't in 2006.

[Brewtacular]

I was hoping to be wake up to news that something had been done in regards to Bill Hall. I think it is clear that this is not going to get any better. It will be difficult but it is time to make that decision.

[Invader3K]

It makes me wonder if they have been playing him in order to hopefully show other teams he can still play decently, if a trade is possibly being talked about. I remember back in '05 Junior Spivey was getting a bunch of starts even though he was slumping, and was traded to Washington shortly after that. I can't point to any evidence that is the case, but it would be nice if there was some real justificiation for Hall's continued overuse.

[kramnoj]

The biggest difference I can see is that JJ's last good year wasn't in 2006.

 

This isn't a relevant comparison. Hall won't be asked to start against righties much anymore. His role is to hit lefties. He's done that for years. He's struggling mightily in that role this year, but Hardy is similarly struggling in his role (and in a more meaningful sample size).

[brewcrew7]

Hardy is OPSing .635. We don't have a thread talking about how he should be replaced.

 

Hall looks awful, and there's no doubt that he's struggling. But the period during which he has stunk against LHP is much smaller than his period of success.

You are talking about JJ. He is one player that doesn't get much play. If he can be this bad and not get much heat you have to be very popular. But I am with you. He is just as awful as anybody and Hall, Kendall, Hart, and even Prince last year have gone thru their stetches of fan complaints and bombing. But JJ is yet to really get anything like any of the other players have gotten.

[Invader3K]

At least JJ has been sometimes putting the ball in play. Hall is striking out at a fairly alarming rate.

[joepepsi]

JJ is batting .333/.400/.476 in his last 6 games. There has been at least one lengthy topic here on JJ's poor hitting.

 

Bill Hall 2007-2009 is hitting .233/.297/.398. That's over 1140 plate appearances. He does have 34 home runs over that period, but he's been striking out in 30% of his at bats and walking less than 10% of the time.

 

Two years ago I wrote he was the next Deivi Cruz. I was right. Except Deivi didn't strike out anywhere near this rate.

[brewmann04]

Hall should Ride the Bench from here on Out and lets give Gamel the AB to see what we really have there.

[Ennder]

When Hardy is up I feel like he is either going to strike out, show warning track power, hit it hard right at someone or hit it hard and someone will make a diving play of the day type of play on it.

 

When Hall is up I feel like he is going to strike out, pop out or meekly ground out.

 

I guess that is the difference for me.

 

edited for very significant typo.

[Invader3K]

JJ is batting .333/.400/.476 in his last 6 games. There has been at least one lengthy topic here on JJ's poor hitting.

 

Bill Hall 2007-2009 is hitting .233/.297/.398. That's over 1140 plate appearances. He does have 34 home runs over that period, but he's been striking out in 30% of his at bats and walking less than 10% of the time.

 

Yeah, there was a big recent topic about JJ Hardy. Not sure why JJ's bad performance means we shouldn't be talking about Hall. I didn't realize Hall's line had been that horrible since '07. That is really poor for a guy who is supposed to be an everyday player. It doesn't really matter what the lefty vs righty splits are at that point, either. He either needs to ride the bench or get sent down to AAA, or traded (we should be so lucky). I want to cheer for the guy, but his complete lack of any semblance of a good approach at the plate lately has just put me over the edge.

[Fatter than Joey]

Hardy is OPSing .635. We don't have a thread talking about how he should be replaced.

 

Hall looks awful, and there's no doubt that he's struggling. But the period during which he has stunk against LHP is much smaller than his period of success.

On one hand, Hardy's struggles have nothing to do with a Bill Hall discussion.

 

I think if Mat Gamel was a SS -- you'd see a lot more heat under Hardy -- there is no doubt he is having a bad year.

[JonnyLungs]

The biggest difference I can see is that JJ's last good year wasn't in 2006.

 

This isn't a relevant comparison. Hall won't be asked to start against righties much anymore. His role is to hit lefties. He's done that for years. He's struggling mightily in that role this year, but Hardy is similarly struggling in his role (and in a more meaningful sample size).

Everybody loves to tout the fact that Bill Hall mashes lefties, and I will not deny that (minus this year). But looking at his numbers against lefties in a vacuum completely ignores the fact that he has gotten 117 at-bats against righties this season, which is more than double the amount of at-bats he has gotten against left-handed hitters. It's much easier to hide a left-handed hitter that can't hit lefties just by the shear lack of lefthanded pitchers out there. Righthanded members of a platoon are always going to face too many righthanded pitchers. We've gone through this with Kevin Mench and we have been going through this with Bill Hall for some time.

 

At the very minimum, the righthanded part of the platoon needs to be able to at least tread water against RHP, and Bill Hall hasn't hit a lick against RHP for two years now. I understand the value of platoons but looking at the splits in a vacuum can be misleading especially when the overall scope of the complete numbers over the past two years tell you that the guy hasn't been very good at all.

[FVBrewerFan]

At some point Macha/Melvin have to face reality. In the past, Hall could at least hit LH pitching even when he was struggling. Now, he has absolutely no confidence. Either use him as a late inning defensive replacement or send him down. There's just no reason to start him over Gamel vs LH pitching. I understand if you're paying a player what they're paying Hall you want to get whatever production you can from him, but this is Turnbow like. Jump at any deal that is out there for him, even if the Brewers have to eat half his salary.

[Brewtacular]

The difference for me is

If Hall is up and there is less than 2 outs...I hope the pitcher gets something going. If there is two outs I concede the inning.

With Hart/Hardy I think there is still a chance.

[naivin]

Magglio Ordonez? Barry Zito? I don't know...seems like there should be someone we could do a swap with.

You got me interested enough to at least look up the details of Zito's contract. If there were just a year or two left, that might be intriguing. Unfortunately, that thing goes through 2013. Zito is a Giant for life. That siad, I assume there must be a struggling SP out there that someone would be willing to get rid of if the Brewers are willing to take the short end of the financial stick, becuase obviously Bill Hall's value is negative at this point.

[joepepsi]

I don't think there is a trading partner for Hall. Maybe San Diego for Brian Giles, he has a no trade, I believe. If they DFA him, he'll get claimed by Pittsburgh or some team like that. His only hope at this point is a change of scenery.

 

I'd rather have Iribarren up here at this point.

[Fear The Chorizo]

I'll continue to insist that even though the Brewers owe him substantial money for the rest of his contract, Hall's best value to the team is either to be traded away for anything they can get, or just gotten rid of - dropping him while eating salary and replacing his offensive black hole with anything on the roster makes them a better team than they are now.

 

Hall's contract is a shining example of "bad money"...he's done nothing to justify the deal the Brewers gave him, and hindsight indicates he would have been the ideal tradebait after his 2006 season.

[Klements Bratwurst]

I'll continue to insist that even though the Brewers owe him substantial money for the rest of his contract, Hall's best value to the team is either to be traded away for anything they can get, or just gotten rid of - dropping him while eating salary and replacing his offensive black hole with anything on the roster makes them a better team than they are now.

 

Hall's contract is a shining example of "bad money"...he's done nothing to justify the deal the Brewers gave him, and hindsight indicates he would have been the ideal tradebait after his 2006 season.

Adam Heether at this point should be clearly better than Bill Hall. Fear of eating the contract has to be the least of Melvin's worries. Maybe he will see the light that an AAA assignment might do him some wonders...... Free Adam Heether!

[kramnoj]

But looking at his numbers against lefties in a vacuum completely ignores the fact that he has gotten 117 at-bats against righties this season, which is more than double the amount of at-bats he has gotten against left-handed hitters.

 

I'm ignoring it, because it doesn't tell us much of anything about how Hall will be used going forward. He's not going to get many future starts vs RHP, so pointing out how much he stinks against RHP isn't adding anything to the conversation. Hall's role going forward will be to hit LHP and be a defensive replacement. He's stunk against all pitching so far, but the sample size of how he's done against LHP this year isn't meaningful.

 

Not sure why JJ's bad performance means we shouldn't be talking about Hall.

 

We can talk about Hall, but there is more reason to talk about Hardy's poor performance than Hall's poor performance in their roles going forward. I'm asking the question, if Hall's performance is meaningful, why aren't people talking now about how poorly Hardy is performing? There was a thread about Hardy, but he had a hot May and so that went away.

 

I advocated getting rid of Hall in the offseason, just giving him away to anyone who would take his contract. Some were hopeful that Lasik would completely turn him around (that didn't make sense to me, if that was the case, the Brewers should have given him 3 days off during the season last year to get it done). Some thought that he should still bring back value. Given that he remained on the team, I hoped that he could at least provide some value in the role that he will be assigned. But there is a chance that Hall won't adapt to being a platoon player, and so the one good thing he can do with a bat won't be there anymore. If that's the case, I'm certainly fine with him being DFAed. I just don't think we have enough evidence that's the case.

[Fatter than Joey]

but there is more reason to talk about Hardy's poor performance than Hall's poor performance in their roles going forward

 

Not in a Bill Hall thread -- it's two independent issues/thread topics.

 

There was a thread about Hardy, but he had a hot May and so that went away.

 

Again, I think if Mat Gamel was a SS, there would be a lot more JJ-sucktitude talk. Who do we replace Hardy with? -- Escobar isn't the slamdunk that Gamel is. We could DFA Hall tomorrow and move forward, we can't DFA Hardy w/o opening another can of problems.

[kramnoj]

Not in a Bill Hall thread -- it's two independent issues/thread topics.

 

You are right. We shouldn't be talking about Hardy in a Hall thread. Was my point not clear? If people are upset with Hall because of his performance in his role, why aren't these same people resurrecting that Hardy thread from the last topic of page 2 to lodge similar complaints?

 

Who do we replace Hardy with? -- Escobar isn't the slamdunk that Gamel is.

 

I disagree. They have opposite profiles, Gamel with the big bat and some questions on defense, Escobar with the great glove and some questions on offense.

[trwi7]

I disagree. They have opposite profiles, Gamel with the big bat and some questions on defense, Escobar with the great glove and some questions on offense.

But Hardy's a good glove as well, so there's no guarantee that Escobar's glove is more valuable and there's definitely no guarantee that Escobar's bat is more valuable going forward.

[kramnoj]

trwi7, I'm not sure what your point is, beyond the obvious. The discussion isn't who is a better player between Escobar and Hardy. The decision will come down to subtract Hardy and his salary for whatever the Brewers get in return compared to Escobar and his total expected production for a minimum salary for 2-3 years.

[Fatter than Joey]

Was my point not clear?

 

I thought it was clear but irrelevant.

 

If people are upset with Hall because of his performance in his role, why aren't these same people resurrecting that Hardy thread from the last topic of page 2 to lodge similar complaints?

 

I am not sure that every/any time BF.net wants to discuss a slumping player, we need to ensure that all other "slumping threads" are up to date.

 

I disagree. They have opposite profiles, Gamel with the big bat and some questions on defense, Escobar with the great glove and some questions on offense.

 

The big difference is that Gamel is burning service time, Escobar is not -- If Escobar was rotting on our bench, I am sure people would be a little more anxious about Hardy's current struggles.