Braun a good/bad fielder

[strawbossisevil]

I have seen a lot of discussion over at NSBB about how Braun is a poor fielder in left and that Soriano is better. The eye test would make it seem that Soriano is the worse OF (aside from his OF assists) as he takes absolutely horrible routes on the ball on a nearly daily basis. However, the advanced defense numbers show Soriano as a better OF.

 

However, this makes me think. Can having a CF with a ton of range in Cameron actually be hurting Braun´s defensive range factors? Think about it this way, if Cameron is catching balls that normally that Braun would be catching if there was a worse CF. Could that be an explanation of why despite Braun´s worse advanced defensive numbers, that those numbers don´t tell the whole story? Or is Soriano actually the better OF? Could that be a flaw in looking soley at range factors when looking at outfielders, that it doesn´t take into account other plus defenders that could be taking away chances?

 

Lay your thoughts on me.

[endaround]

Soriano's alleged value comes almost entirely from his arm. For example his UZR in LF last year was 2.5 with 4.7 of that due to his arm.

[jazzytrav]

Can you explain that a little further end? I'm not really too well-versed in UZR. By pure speculation I would assume that range is much more important than arm, but that's just a guess.

[endaround]

UZR tallies runs prevented by different aspects of defense. So in 2008 Soriano got 4.7 runs from his arm, -1.1 for his range, and -1.0 for errors.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=847&position=2B/OF

 

This year he's "stunk" but looking at corner OF UZR ratings at this point is really foolish, like looking at BA after the first week of the season

[TooLiveBrew]

Basically anyone trying to argue that Soriano is a better fielder than Braun

 

1) is a Cubs fan/homer

2) has never seen either guy play LF for more than a game or two

3) is a Cubs fan/homer that has never seen either guy play LF for more than an inning or two

 

Right now, the two aren't all that far apart defensively, but as noted by others, Braun is young & improving in LF while Soriano is getting older & his feeble skills are actually declining. I really don't see Soriano's arm as even really being better than Braun's... I think teams have tested Soriano in the past & perhaps his throwing value has been inflated a bit? Not saying his arm isn't good, I just think Braun's arm is too.

[dlk9s]

If you forget the "nerd" stats and just watch the two players, it is painfully obvious that Soriano is a terrible fielder. There is no possible way that he is better than Braun. Braun is still learning how to play out there, obviously, but he doesn't make an ass out of himself every week like Soriano does.

[strawbossisevil]

Could part of Braun´s range factor numbers be impacted by having Cameron in CF? Or would that not effect those numbers? I´m curious if having a ++ range CF could have an effect on the range numbers of his fellow OF (perhaps part of the reason why Hart´s range numbers looked better in CF than they do in RF).

[Invader3K]

I think it's safe to say, if nothing else, that Soriano is on the decline as a fielder while Braun is probably still on the rise. I think in another season it will be clear who the better defender is, and it's not going to be Soriano.

[TheCrew07]

I believe so. The CF always gets priority when fielding a ball (it's always his ball if he wants it) so the more out of zones playes the CF player makes, the less plays the players along side him can make in the fringe zones between them.

 

I don't want to get started on UZR again, but in a nutshell that's my problem with zones in general, I wish they measured defense differently.

[crewcrazy]

To me, neither is a very good fielder, but it helps that they're both athletic enough to make up for a fair amount of their mistakes. Braun still sometimes takes bad routes on balls and takes some unnecessary risks, but he's getting better. I just wish Brian Anderson would stop mentioning his lack of errors since moving to the outfield, because it's pretty hard to get charged with an error as an outfielder.

 

Both are better than Carlos Lee, for what it's worth. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[endaround]

Seriosuly, take the ball last night that Hardy was going back on that Braun should have gotten. It was clearly Braun's ball and one he should have caught but because he didn't put a glove on its its not an error but a double

[logan82]

Soriano just looks lazy much of the time in the outfield.

 

Dewan's plus /minus has Braun at 4 and Soriano at -1. Theirs arms are at Braun 3 and Soriano 6. Making them Braun 7 and Soriano 5 overall.

 

Bill James misplay/Good play leaderboards. In LF, Braun and Soriano both made 18 misplays(worst), but Braun made 14 good plays(3rd best) to cover much of that. Soriano didn't even show up in the top ten on good plays. It seems that Braun was very erratic as a fielder and Sorianon overall was just below average and steady. Both were very good with throwing.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

Braun still has a ways to go in LF, but he does have all the physical tools to be a good one. Braun will get better...Soriano will only get worse. At best you could say they are a wash right now, but I would take Braun.

 

Last night epitomized his play...great diving catch, great range coming on the ball in center (Soriano wouldn't get close to either of those) and a misplayed ball when JJ came back. He should have made that play.

[zelouswheeler4prez]

Braun has so much athletic talent, it's hard to imagine him struggling too much in any outfield position. He is already starting to make highlight reel plays, and the more repetitions he gets in left field will only make him better on routes to the ball and such. When i was younger i remember watching soriano being flashy and athletic like Braun now, but i believe Braun has the much much much much much higher ceiling.

[jazzytrav]

i believe Braun has the much much much much much higher ceiling.

 

If you're talking about defensively, then I get what you're saying...but if you're talking about pure athleticism, I think you may be forgetting just how good Soriano was.

 

Soriano just seems to be very stubborn, both offensively and defensively. Besides insisting on being the leadoff hitter against all better baseball judgment, he still does the hop before he catches a fly ball, and there's no apparent reason for it. Talk about a fear of change.

[jhart05]

I have seen a lot of discussion over at NSBB about how Braun is a poor fielder in left and that Soriano is better.

 

Just proves what I've known for a long time. ScRubs fans are idiots. Put down the beer and watch the game, maybe you'll learn something.

[pebadger]

The following opinion is based only upon watching both of them and the basis in fact is probably really only know by those very close to teh team, but it at least *appears* that Braun cares about playing defense a fair bit more than Soriano does. I'll allow that this is completely subjective and I am biased in my view as a Brewer fan, but I'd bet that I'm not alone in holding that opinion. If true, that alone swings any argument.

 

I beleive Brau is a better than average LF at present, if only because the bar is lower in LF and Braun is a superior athlete than most out there. The ball that fell in last night is something that will happen every so often, though that does not excuse it. On the other hand, I don't necessarily want kamikaze guys out there either who single-mindedly go after everything and end up hurting themselves or others, or who at least threaten to do so and thus cuase other guys to hesitate on plays that they should themselves make.

[DHonks]

watching on tv and in person, Braun is the best LF we've had in some time. Jenkins was iffy at best. He had a cannon, but hated going back on balls so he compensated by playing ridiculously deep. Soft liners to left were turned into singles all too routinely with Jenkins and Lee in LF. Braun has range and a solid arm. His range will ultimately lead to more outs, even if he makes some mistakes. His misplays also don't tend to cost us very much--if at all

[Invader3K]

Really? I always thought Jenkins was above average as a defender. He was capable of making some pretty spectacular dives and grabs. Just my opinion.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

I think Braun is getting better no doubt, but he has a ways to go to catch up to Jenkins. Jenkins was an above average OF, Braun has probably acheived average status this year. I do think he gets better, but he's not to where Jenkins was yet.

[Ennder]

Really? I always thought Jenkins was above average as a defender. He was capable of making some pretty spectacular dives and grabs. Just my opinion.

He certainly was when he was younger, his last couple years for the Brewers he did tend to play deep and just keep everything in front of him.

[FVBrewerFan]

Both are better than Carlos Lee, for what it's worth. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

Or Kevin Mench.

[Menace II Sobriety]

Some nice Brewers love in this article

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/jon_heyman/05/20/trade.market/1.html

 

 

• The Brewers suffered a blow when vastly improving infielder Rickie Weeks was lost for the year with a wrist injury suffered on a swing in St. Louis. But they aren't in such a terrible spot at second. They have the perennially clutch Craig Counsell plus Casey McGehee, a spring standout. Brewers GM Doug Melvin said he heard from the agent for Ray Durham, though he seems disinclined to go that route again. Plus, the Brewers will have top shortstop prospect Alcides Escobar play some second in the minors, just in case.

• The callup of prospect Mat Gamel, 23, who homered Monday in St. Louis, potentially gives the Brewers yet another big-time hitter. Mike Cameron predicted great things for Gamel when I saw them this spring.

• Ryan Braun is one terrific outfielder, no kidding. The move of Braun from third base to left field is one of the smartest things any team has done in years.