Weeks out for the season; Hurricane's a-comin'

[naivin]

It seems you're almost taking enjoyment out of not discussing Bill Hall v. LHP, & instead discussing something else that no one else really seems to be addressing.

How do you figure? I suggested Bill Hall is a bad choice to bat second. Xcellence brought up his outstanding numbers vs. LHP in the two hole. I responded to that because in the last three seasons that amounts to about a dozen AB's. If you consider that valid, I guess there is nothing I can say. The other problem is of course that leaves about an equal number of AB's he had against RHP in front of Braun and Fielder in which he has done nothing.

 

I have made no effort to discount what he has done against LHP. If you can find somewhere that I did, have at it. I am simply suggesting there is are far better places in the order for him to do it.

[cwolf2012]

Do you honestly believe that batting in the 2 hole is THAT different than any other spot? Do you really think that he'll somehow forget how to hit left-handers because he's in the 2 spot?

 

You can't dismiss data simply because you want to believe something that's not true. A player that hits LHP well is going to do it in every spot. There may be some minor differences between spots, but the overall hitting ability of the player doesn't change.

 

Should we have dismissed all of CC's past stats because he pitched in the AL and never pitched in the NL before last year? By the same logic you're applying here, we should not take into account any stats that don't perfectly match a given situation.

[Postseason2006]

The #2 hitters job is to hit the ball to the right side of the field and take a lot of pitches like Gantner did behind Molitor. Hall uses RF about as well as a shortstop would use a catcher's mit.

[cwolf2012]

The #2 hitters job is to get on base. If you're putting a bad hitter in a position to get the 2nd most plate appearances on the team simply because he can make outs consistently, you deserve to be fired as a manager.

[TooLiveBrew]

As best I understand, the job of the #2 hitter is just like any other hitter's job -- get on base, & hit for power. Bill Hall has done both of those things extremely well in his career against LHP.

[TheCrew]

The #2 hitters job is to get on base. If you're putting a bad hitter in a position to get the 2nd most plate appearances on the team simply because he can make outs consistently, you deserve to be fired as a manager.

So a guy that is hitting .382 vs lefties this season and hit .306 last season vs lefties would be ideal for the 2 hole, right?

 

I think Macha is giving Hall his chance - I don't expect Macha to continue to give him chances. I just want to know when Gamel is going to get his chance against LHP.

[Never Outhustled]

The #2 hitters job is to hit the ball to the right side of the field and take a lot of pitches like Gantner did behind Molitor. Hall uses RF about as well as a shortstop would use a catcher's mit. Look at Halls spray chart versus LHP. He's a machine to RF. I agree with TLB and cwolf though, giving yourself up to move a runner over is something smart teams gave up as soon as they started understanding math. I guess Hall fits both worlds, as he gets hits to RF versus LHP.

[logan82]

I think Hardy is a better choice for the 2 hole against RHP.

 

2006-2008 vs LHP

Hardy .308/.385/.578/.963

Hall .292/.374/.536/.910

 

2006-2008 vs RHP

Hardy .265/.308/.423/.731

Hall .235/.296/.435/.731

 

I wouldn't call Hall a horrible or even bad choice in the 2 hole against LHP. I think Hardy is better.

 

On second thought Cameron looks like the best choice for the 2 hole.(ignoring lineup optimization that would put Fielder up there)

 

2006-2008 vs LHP

.277/.389/.503/.892

 

2006-2008 vs RHP

.243/.321/.449/.770

[naivin]

Looking at the various Corey Hart, Jason Kendall threads, etc., it is starting to look more and more like the Brewers are going to have to look to the outside to address 2B. Given the current weaknesses elsewhere, the only real alternative seems to be Counsell playing pretty much everyday and batting lead off. Anyone like that idea?

[bklynbrewcrew]

The more Counsell plays the more he is going to get exposed as the weak offensive player that he is. I really dont think we can afford to have him as our main leadoff hitter for the better part of the season.

[Invader3K]

But who do you replace Counsell with? I don't see any free agents that are really viable, and a trade for anyone who would be an upgrade would probably cost too much right now.

[lcbj68c]

How about Cabrera from Cleveland for the leadoff spot? Don't think he would cost too much.

[TheCrew07]

I think how well the Brewers played for a month is skewing perspective here. I thought this team may win 86 games if things went well, now we lose 4 of 5 and people are back on the panic button... we didn't have any significant depth anywhere, so any injuries were going to be incredibly costly anywhere but the bullpen. Weeks went down, it's part of sports, a reactionary move to acquire a stop gap for this season would really tick me off, trading prospects for a stop gap at 2B? Seriously? Add in that some players are performing poorly lately and things look worse than they are.. It not just Hart, Hardy was horrible early, Cam has been on a serious slide, Hall has been Hall... then Hardy gets hurt forcing both Counsell and McGehee into the lineup. What if another player like Braun gets hurt? We're at the May of here, this is a marathon not a sprint. There should be no talk of acquiring anyone until the all-star break at the earliest.

 

Sometimes it's just not going to be your year, injuries to position players is one aspect of baseball that I believe is somewhat "lucky", many of us might be chasing a goal that isn't in the cards or realistic for this particular season. Have some patience and lets see where we are at come the all-star break.

[TooLiveBrew]

Given the current weaknesses elsewhere, the only real alternative seems to be Counsell playing pretty much everyday and batting lead off. Anyone like that idea?

 

No. And I like Counsell.

 

 

I think how well the Brewers played for a month is skewing perspective here

 

I don't at all. I think people are reacting very reasonably to what is a huge weakness on this team right now, and a very concerning problem moving forward.

 

I also just want to address Invader's post -- I don't agree that bringing in another MIF would be too expensive right now, unless by that you meant that the Brewers should wait until teams start to truly fall out of contention to attempt to swing a trade. The longer the Brewers limp along without addressing the problems in the infield, the less margin for error this team has.

 

Imo the Cubs are clearly a team that isn't going to run away with anything, and the Cards just aren't a complete team either. Imho this division is the Brewers' for the taking, but obv. with Weeks out that task has become much, much trickier.

[Never Outhustled]

Shouldn't the Brewers wait to see what they have in Gamel before trading for help? Is a Counsel/Hall platoon at 2B suddenly worse than it was at 3B a few weeks ago? I don't think anyone would disagree with my assertation that Gamel is as good, if not better, than Weeks as a hitter.

 

I still continue to think the whole leadoff thing is overrated. After the 1st inning, the guy is just a ballplayer like everyone else.

[naivin]

What if another player like Braun gets hurt?

If Melvin/Attanasio base decision other than a back up for LF on that basis, then we've already lost.

 

This is a question of expectations - how good you (Doug Melvin) believe this team('s pitching) can be. If they feel they have a team to compete, then addressing 2B/lead off now just makes sense. If they think they have a chance to win this thing, and can make the team better, why not do it?

 

BTW, why does it have to be a stop gap? There isn't exactly a line of players waiting to play 2B for the Brewers. If they found a couple year solution, that would be just fine.

[TooLiveBrew]

Is a Counsel/Hall platoon at 2B suddenly worse than it was at 3B a few weeks ago?

 

No, but Counsell has had to play a lot more with Hardy's injury, and to me it just underscores that we need more depth in the MIF. The problem imo isn't that Counsell & Hall aren't a solid choice for a platoon, it's that with just one injury to the IF (like Hardy's), Counsell, McGehee, & Hall will all see too much playing time (imho). All three of those guys are very solid in terms of being depth, but not one of them should be getting regular playing time.

 

Also, I think we already know what we have with Gamel -- the 3d best hitter on this team. Why Macha continues to let him rot on the bench is beyond me, and honestly has me quite pissed right now.

[Postseason2006]

I still could not believe Macha sat him again last night. Hall gets one hit and Macha decides thats enough to start him again vs Wainright.

[whizkid]

I don't think anyone would disagree with my assertation that Gamel is as good, if not better, than Weeks as a hitter.

 

I think we already know what we have with Gamel -- the 3d best hitter on this team.

 

I'll disagree with both these statements. Gamel's a good prospect no doubt, though not as good as Braun was. He's hit a HR and a double which is great but there's no guarantee or even reasonable expectation imo that he's going to hit well enough as a rookie to be the 3rd best hitter on the team. Even among good prospects, rookies that do have an immediate impact like that are the exception. I think people are getting carried away.

[Never Outhustled]

Why Macha continues to let him rot on the bench is beyond me, and honestly has me quite pissed right now.

He's starting for the 5th time in 6 days, and PH in between, I think to say he's rotting is being a little dramatic.

 

 

No, but Counsell has had to play a lot more with Hardy's injury, and to me it just underscores that we need more depth in the MIF. The problem imo isn't that Counsell & Hall aren't a solid choice for a platoon, it's that with just one injury to the IF (like Hardy's), Counsell, McGehee, & Hall will all see too much playing time

Shouldn't we wait until a longterm injury actually happens to trade? Hardy might not get injured again all year. The Brewers could also replace Casey MaGehee with Adam Heether, who is dominating in AAA, and has always been better than MaGehee.

 

 

How about Cabrera from Cleveland for the leadoff spot? Don't think he would cost too much.

He's playing well, but didn't last year, so its hard to tell how good he is. If he is good, what motivation does Cleveland have to deal him? Like you said, he's not expensive.

 

 

BTW, why does it have to be a stop gap? There isn't exactly a line of players waiting to play 2B for the Brewers. If they found a couple year solution, that would be just fine.

Weeks is injured, not dead. Brett Lawrie is a terrific prospect. Hernan Iribarren is having a good year at AAA. Alcides Escobar is showing steady progress with the bat. We're strong at 2B.

[TooLiveBrew]

I think people are getting carried away.

 

I really don't think so. Mat Gamel is the 3rd most talented hitter in this organization, and imho that includes considering a healthy Weeks. And I'm obviously a huge Weeks guy.

 

The gifts that Gamel possesses are just tremendous. Sure it was just one swing, but that HR he hit in St. Louis was a swing that very, very few hitters at any level would be able to drive the ball with, let alone hit it out off a MLB pitcher. The guy is legit.

 

And just to be clear I am not projecting a Braun-esque rookie season for Mat. But I think he's clearly our best option at 3B right now.

[whizkid]

Not saying he's not legit over the long term. I'm saying that he puts it together as a rookie in mlb to the degree people seem to think is very uncertain.

[TooLiveBrew]

The kid was posting an OPS in the 2008 Russell Branyan stratosphere down in Nashville though. There really is every reason to expect much more from Gamel than a typical rookie. He's just not a typical rookie.

 

And fwiw, here is his MLE line, based on 2008 Huntsville stats: .275/.328/.434/.762

 

And that's 2008 Gamel. Clearly 2009 Gamel is better than that. And just so I'm putting myself out there, I think it's very reasonable to forecast somewhere around a .350 OBP & .450 SLG for Gamel, given full-time duty this season.

[Never Outhustled]

I think it's very reasonable to forecast somewhere around a .350 OBP & .450 SLG for Gamel, given full-time duty this season.

I agree, that might even be conservative. However, I think we'll have a number of hitters put up better numbers than that this year. This is a very deep team.

[TooLiveBrew]

Oh, it was intended to be kind of conservative... I always feel that way about projecting guys' lines, esp. since I'm really not a stats expert at all. Not even close.