Quality Starts

[brewtown82]

Why all the hate for the "Quality Starts" stat? I mean, six innings and three runs is going to keep you in a ballgame. What other metric should we use to judge this? Is it because it doesn't take into account the defense behind him or the number of walks issued?

[brewtown82]

Why all the hate for the "Quality Starts" stat? I mean, six innings and three runs is going to keep you in a ballgame. What other metric should we use to judge this? Is it because it doesn't take into account the defense behind him or the number of walks issued?

[Invader3K]

I think it's a nice stat for tracking how the progress of a season is going, but not necessarily judging a pitcher's real value...maybe others have a different opinion.

[Invader3K]

I think it's a nice stat for tracking how the progress of a season is going, but not necessarily judging a pitcher's real value...maybe others have a different opinion.

[kramnoj]

QS is a stat in limbo. Nobody that is hardcore into sabrmetrics will use it, and it doesn't have much support among regular fans, because they think it means that a pitcher with quality starts will have a 4.5 era. Of course, in the higher offense era, a pitcher with 4.5 ERA isn't bad anyway.

 

I think QS does a good job with it's goal: how many times does a pitcher do a decent job of keeping his team in the game.

[kramnoj]

QS is a stat in limbo. Nobody that is hardcore into sabrmetrics will use it, and it doesn't have much support among regular fans, because they think it means that a pitcher with quality starts will have a 4.5 era. Of course, in the higher offense era, a pitcher with 4.5 ERA isn't bad anyway.

 

I think QS does a good job with it's goal: how many times does a pitcher do a decent job of keeping his team in the game.

[pitchleague]

is it 3 runs or 3 earned runs? I'm having a mind blank right now. If it's 3 runs, I can see it as a quality start. If it's 3 earned runs, I can not, since the score could be 8-1 because you gave up 5 unearned runs.

[pitchleague]

is it 3 runs or 3 earned runs? I'm having a mind blank right now. If it's 3 runs, I can see it as a quality start. If it's 3 earned runs, I can not, since the score could be 8-1 because you gave up 5 unearned runs.

[GormanHarvey]

3 ER

[GormanHarvey]

3 ER

[TheCrew07]

Well you can give up 6 unearned runs like Suppan did last year and still get a quality start but your team isn't in the game. At some point you have to stop the bleeding if you're a pitcher. It's not bad, but it just doesn't mean anything to me because the better the pitcher the more quality starts you're going to get out of him, it doesn't tell anything we don't already know.

[TheCrew07]

Well you can give up 6 unearned runs like Suppan did last year and still get a quality start but your team isn't in the game. At some point you have to stop the bleeding if you're a pitcher. It's not bad, but it just doesn't mean anything to me because the better the pitcher the more quality starts you're going to get out of him, it doesn't tell anything we don't already know.

[Ennder]

I'd use something like game score to track how good starts are. You can go 6 IP, pitch terribly and only give up 1 run. I also have a problem with any stat that suggests 9 IP with 4 ER is worse than 6 IP and 3 ER or that 6 IP and 3 ER is better than 5.2 IP and 0 ER.

[Ennder]

I'd use something like game score to track how good starts are. You can go 6 IP, pitch terribly and only give up 1 run. I also have a problem with any stat that suggests 9 IP with 4 ER is worse than 6 IP and 3 ER or that 6 IP and 3 ER is better than 5.2 IP and 0 ER.

[rluzinski]

It's a quick, dirty way to see how consistent a pitcher has been. If he has a 5.0 ERA but 5 of his 6 starts has been a quality start, he's been a decent pitcher for his team. A 4.5 ERA starting pitcher is worth about $8 mil a year, so apparently teams value an average starting pitcher a heck of a lot.

[rluzinski]

It's a quick, dirty way to see how consistent a pitcher has been. If he has a 5.0 ERA but 5 of his 6 starts has been a quality start, he's been a decent pitcher for his team. A 4.5 ERA starting pitcher is worth about $8 mil a year, so apparently teams value an average starting pitcher a heck of a lot.

[brewtown82]

I'd use something like game score to track how good starts are. You can go 6 IP, pitch terribly and only give up 1 run. I also have a problem with any stat that suggests 9 IP with 4 ER is worse than 6 IP and 3 ER or that 6 IP and 3 ER is better than 5.2 IP and 0 ER.

 

I like your reasoning here. Although, I think pitchers don't pitch far enough into games anymore, so I don't mind the six inning thing. But you're right, 4 runs in nine innings is better than 3 in 6. I guess you just can't take shortcuts when statistically evaluating pitchers. You have to analyze everything as a whole.

[brewtown82]

I'd use something like game score to track how good starts are. You can go 6 IP, pitch terribly and only give up 1 run. I also have a problem with any stat that suggests 9 IP with 4 ER is worse than 6 IP and 3 ER or that 6 IP and 3 ER is better than 5.2 IP and 0 ER.

 

I like your reasoning here. Although, I think pitchers don't pitch far enough into games anymore, so I don't mind the six inning thing. But you're right, 4 runs in nine innings is better than 3 in 6. I guess you just can't take shortcuts when statistically evaluating pitchers. You have to analyze everything as a whole.

[bani1717]

How about this: Quality Start = 6+ IP and an ERA of no higher than 4.5 for the game by itself. 6-7.2 IP and 3 ER gets it done. So does 8+ IP and 4 ER.

 

If you wanted to get stricter about it, you could even lower the required ERA for that game to something like 4.25 or 4.00. (Lowering it to 4.00 would require 6-6.2 IP and 2 ER, 7-8.2 IP and 3 ER, or 9 IP and 4 ER.)

[bani1717]

How about this: Quality Start = 6+ IP and an ERA of no higher than 4.5 for the game by itself. 6-7.2 IP and 3 ER gets it done. So does 8+ IP and 4 ER.

 

If you wanted to get stricter about it, you could even lower the required ERA for that game to something like 4.25 or 4.00. (Lowering it to 4.00 would require 6-6.2 IP and 2 ER, 7-8.2 IP and 3 ER, or 9 IP and 4 ER.)

[Ennder]

I don't think ER should be the only thing you look at was part of my point. The other day Burnett pitched 6 IP with like 8 H and 6 BB and gave up 1 ER. I'm not someone who calls that a good start, that is a lucky start, it is bad hitting, it is a good result, but it is not a quality start. If he pitches like that every start he will have horrible results overall. QS is kind of like looking at AVG, it is sort of useful and very easy to figure out just by looking at a box score, but it doesn't tell you all that much.

 

Something like game score is too complicated to figure out on the fly which is a big downfall but it does tell you a whole lot more about a start than QS does, it is kind of like OPS (I assume most people can't just look at a box score and figure out OPS in their head at least!). Not saying game score is perfect, just pretty readily available.

[Ennder]

I don't think ER should be the only thing you look at was part of my point. The other day Burnett pitched 6 IP with like 8 H and 6 BB and gave up 1 ER. I'm not someone who calls that a good start, that is a lucky start, it is bad hitting, it is a good result, but it is not a quality start. If he pitches like that every start he will have horrible results overall. QS is kind of like looking at AVG, it is sort of useful and very easy to figure out just by looking at a box score, but it doesn't tell you all that much.

 

Something like game score is too complicated to figure out on the fly which is a big downfall but it does tell you a whole lot more about a start than QS does, it is kind of like OPS (I assume most people can't just look at a box score and figure out OPS in their head at least!). Not saying game score is perfect, just pretty readily available.

[ILuvDaBush]

Isn't there a Quality+ Start? If not, there should be. 7IP/2ER. That is quality. Hand the ball to your team's top set-up man (while simultaneously preserving the best bullpen weapon, the LOOGy) and then, if all things go according to plan, the closer (because even if it's tied or close to being tied, you should have your closer out there then). An ERA of 4.50 doesn't appeal to me.

[ILuvDaBush]

Isn't there a Quality+ Start? If not, there should be. 7IP/2ER. That is quality. Hand the ball to your team's top set-up man (while simultaneously preserving the best bullpen weapon, the LOOGy) and then, if all things go according to plan, the closer (because even if it's tied or close to being tied, you should have your closer out there then). An ERA of 4.50 doesn't appeal to me.

[jeffy]

Isn't there a Quality+ Start? If not, there should be. 7IP/2ER. That is quality.

What if he gave up 5 "unearned" runs because of two out error followed by 3 hits? The problem with earned runs is it sometimes gives the pitcher a pass for some bad pitching just because an error occured in an inning. I think there should be some consideration given for things that happen due to errors, but "earned runs" sometimes gives too much of a break to the pitcher.

 

Why doesn't this work the other way? Using ERA logic, after 3 batters come to the plate in an inning any errors should not count against the fielder, because the pitcher should have gotten three outs and the inning should be over.