Top Notch Starters at Deadline

[brewmann04]

have to wish that the Indians realize they fall out of the race and move Lee to Milwaukee.

[Hammer]

Should this thread be re-titled "Mildly reliable Starters at Deadline" instead? It seems that anyone would be better than Soup at this time...

[TheCrew07]

Who was the last budding ace to be traded? I just don't think trades like this happen very often and if they do you have to give up a ton. What would have we wanted for Gallardo his rookie year?

3 names come to mind immediately... Kazmir, Garza, and Volquez.... nothing much happened this last off-season because I think teams saw what the Rays did and teams that had big offenses but little pitching did in Texas and Detroit. Jackson might also fit the bill, I always read good reports about his stuff but his career didn't really take off till this season. Oddly enough, 3 of the 4 trades that come to mind have a common deomoninator in the Rays, they certainly aren't afraid to wheel and deal for pitching. The climate is definitely tougher now than it was a couple of years ago, but that doesn't mean it can't be done... DM just needs the right situation. This is actually why I'm alright trading for AA pitchers, they are relatively close to MLB but don't have any sort of proven track record so we should be able to easily trade prospects for prospects, or an MLB pitcher for a couple of pitching prospects.

 

We aren't going to significantly upgrade the talent in the rotation in season, even last year Sabathia was essentially brought in to replace Yo's spot in the order. I'm not sure I'd qualify rentals as upgrades anyway, as it doesn't seem very realistic to make a splash for a rental player year in and year out stop gapping a single hole along the way. Making significant changes to the rotation will likely happen out of season until our young prospects starting forcing their up to AA, AAA, then MLB. We could certainly upgrade the rotation talent midseason from within down the road but we're a couple of years away from that yet. I doubt players like Arnett, Scarpetta, Peralta, or Braddock will be ready for the rotation to begin next season, but 2011 could be the start of very good things pitching wise as the young guys could be knocking on the door.

 

Even if Parra comes back and pitches like he should, we still have 3 rotation spots to fill in the next 2 years, I don't think we're a point where dealing for rental players make sense. We still have this core for a minimum of 1 more season, then Hardy will be gone, and we have 2 more years with Fielder and Weeks beyond this year. I'm not sure why we must win now when we'll have the same exact core next year if we want it. If Parra fails, then we have 4 rotation spots to fill... that's a tall order without also having holes coming up at 3B, CF, RF, 2B, 1B, SS, and C. Right now it's pretty safe to say that Gamel will fill one of those position spots, I'm curious how people expect to fill the rest of the holes and acquire a rental for the season?

 

If DM were to make a move I hope it's not for DD, I just don't like way he pitches at all and never have, he gets decent results, but for personal reasons I'd rather he never pitch for the Brewers again. I'd rather it be for significant type A talent which at least would give us the possibility of an extra 1st next season.

[jjfanec]

You thought of three good ones crew but there really are not a ton more that I have found. Of the three guys only Garza had pitched with any effectiveness at the major league level and he cost the Rays a player that was a year removed from being the best prospect in baseball. Volquez had struggled at the majors in Texas before his trade and the trade cost them Josh Hamilton. Kazmir was a while back and that trade was considered awful by the Mets from the start.

 

They are very hard trades to make because it has to be a team with a surplus of young pitching. The Red Sox would fit that bill. They are going to ask for a ton though and of course the Brewers could get young pitching by trading Prince in the off-season and maybe Hardy if he turns it around, but not much else is going to bring back good young pitching, except Gamel or Escobar who seem almost untouchable.

[Never Outhustled]

I'm not sure why we must win now when we'll have the same exact core next year if we want it. If Parra fails, then we have 4 rotation spots to fill... that's a tall order without also having holes coming up at 3B, CF, RF, 2B, 1B, SS, and C. Right now it's pretty safe to say that Gamel will fill one of those position spots, I'm curious how people expect to fill the rest of the holes and acquire a rental for the season?

Why does every single position suddenly need to be filled by a prospect? Are we slashing payroll? Our lineup now isn't all homegrown. We will have cheap players in our lineup soon enough with guys like Gamel, Escobar, and 1 of the catchers.

 

Why do we need 2 young catchers? Where is Taylor Green every going to play? We don't even have a spot for Casey McGehee to play next year.

 

We have some surplus talent, and with it we should be able to aquire a pitcher like Bedard. We won't have to deal anyone earmarked for a future starting role. Then, in the offseason, we can go looking for a young starter. We better off with an established pitcher now than a young guy that might not be a significant upgrade.

[nate82]

Why do we need 2 young catchers? Where is Taylor Green every going to play? We don't even have a spot for Casey McGehee to play next year.

 

We have some surplus talent, and with it we should be able to aquire a pitcher like Bedard. We won't have to deal anyone earmarked for a future starting role. Then, in the offseason, we can go looking for a young starter. We better off with an established pitcher now than a young guy that might not be a significant upgrade.

I really believe in the off season the Brewers are going to get a starting pitcher for Hardy. This is probably Hardy's last year as a Brewer. As for Bedard he looks to be the most logical pitcher that Melvin is going to go after but the Mariners are still in it but they are just hoping that the Angels fall and the Rangers also fall off. I don't see either happening but the Mariners are not going to give up while they still legitimetly have a shot at winning that division. So Bedard may not be available untill after the All Star break or just before the trading deadline.

 

McGehee will have a spot to play next year. I believe Hart and McGehee will be battling it out for the starting spot in RF that is if the Brewers bring back Cameron for another year. I don't really want to see Hart in CF though.

 

I could see a trade where the Brewers send Hardy to the Yankees for Wang. If Wang continues to struggle this year that could be a perfect trade for the Brewers. Wang would be under the Brewers control for the next 2 years I believe it is and at a cheap price. Bush would then fall into the #3 spot and the rotation would be fine with Gallardo, Wang, Bush, Looper/Parra, and Suppan.

 

Or the Brewers could also trade both Hardy and Hart for some pitching help. Either way you look at it Melvin is going to make a move this offseason. There is no way Escobar stays in AAA for another year. I don't see anything wrong with that but I don't see Melvin doing that though. Escobar will be the starting SS barring any injury. Weeks will be back after the first or second month of the season. Hopefully the Brewers make Weeks play in the minors in either A ball or extended spring training before bringing him up.

 

I still believe that Holladay is not available in a trade. I don't believe the Blue Jays will ever trade Holladay and are probably looking to extend him more than they are looking to trade him.

[nate82]

Looking at the Yankees right now I think the Yankees can part with Wang right now. I wonder if a Hart + package would land Wang from the Yankees. Nady is out for the season for the Yankees and trading Hart + to the Yankees would net the Brewers a starting pitcher in Wang that the Brewers would have control of for the next 2.5 to 3 years. I could see Hughes going into the starting rotation for the Yankees and I doubt the Yankees would trade Hughes for anything right now.

 

I believe Wang will become available and I believe he is better lots better than how he is pitching right now. The only problem with trading Hart right now is that there is no one to take over in RF for Hart. McGehee if he was 100% healthy and wasn't having problems with his legs I would put him in RF but that may not be a good move with his current health. I believe it would be a Hall/Gerut/Cat platoon out in RF if Hart would be traded for starting pitching.

[kramnoj]

I wonder if a Hart + package would land Wang from the Yankees.

 

Hart isn't an upgrade over what they have now, and it is good business to have depth at SP.

[ELCABALLO45]

I dunno if this goes here but..

 

http://taoofsteve.mlblogs.com/archives/2009/06/d-backs_and_brewers_talk.html?partnerId=rss_ari

[jjfanec]

I dunno if this goes here but..

 

http://taoofsteve.mlblogs.com/archives/2009/06/d-backs_and_brewers_talk.html?partnerId=rss_ari

Doug Davis has been talked about a lot and depending on the price he would make sense. He is a free agent after this year so I am guessing we would get good draft picks for him. Even if he regresses back to a 4.1 or so ERA he would still be valuable to this team right now. He has, for the last five years, been able to maintain a bad WHIP but decent ERA. He is not a world changer, but with Parra struggling with control in AAA and not a lot of in house options he would make sense and he should not cost one the top prospects.

[TooLiveBrew]

Looking at the Yankees right now I think the Yankees can part with Wang right now. I wonder if a Hart + package would land Wang from the Yankees.

 

I wouldn't want any part of Chien-Ming Wang right now. He knows what's wrong (not getting on top of his sinker), and still hasn't been able fix it. I'm guessing there's nothing Bill Castro could tell Wang that the Yankees haven't already tried. He really shouldn't even be starting over Phil Hughes at this point.

[TheCrew07]

Why does every single position suddenly need to be filled by a prospect? Are we slashing payroll? Our lineup now isn't all homegrown. We will have cheap players in our lineup soon enough with guys like Gamel, Escobar, and 1 of the catchers.

I never said they did, it would depend on whom is available, and for the cost, my comments were a reflection of current players on the roster not being retained. None of those players have will be retained long-term, and the only one I'd want to the Brewers to consider at this point may be Weeks. Lawrie can slide to a different position if need be, his bat is good enough and he's athletic enough to player anywhere. I also believe we have enough surplus talent to make a deal, but it has to be the right deal. It's been reported regularly that the asking price when people call starts and ends with one of Escobar and Gamel whom won't be moved. There also seem to be many deals where the team trading a pitcher wants pitching back. As we need to move surplus bats for pitching, those organizations and potential players aren't a good match.

 

I've said it many times that I'd rather sign a FA bat than a FA arm, so my primary goal is to upgrade the talent in the rotation without spending 20 mil per season on any single player.

 

Why do we need 2 young catchers? Where is Taylor Green every going to play? We don't even have a spot for Casey McGehee to play next year.

No we don't need 2 catchers, but will Salome plus an often injured Green be enough to headline a deal? I really don't know. I like what McGehee has done, but I'm not sold he's an every day solution yet, nor am I ready to hang my hat on Heether yet, but Heether may have some trade value as well. I won't take anything away from Heether, he's performed admirably this year.

 

We have some surplus talent, and with it we should be able to aquire a pitcher like Bedard. We won't have to deal anyone earmarked for a future starting role. Then, in the offseason, we can go looking for a young starter. We better off with an established pitcher now than a young guy that might not be a significant upgrade.

I agree that if DM makes a move it should be for a type A rental if one is available for the right price. My point that I probably didn't express very well is that we need to start thinking long-term here as our first wave of prospects move into FA. As well as the fact that many pitchers in the rotation lack longevity and will need to be replaced in the next 2 seasons as well.

 

I'm not sure what to think about this season, McGehee has done an admirable job filling in for Weeks, but their are still so many questions today that I'm not certain of the answers. Does Parra regain some form? Will Bush be effective again? Is Braden Looper going to start pitching better? Will Yo be effective late into the season given his workload thus far and lack of innings last season? I just have a real hard time making definitive statements about the rotation. Bedard would help, but I'm not sure he'd be enough to get the team into the post season. If the Brewers aren't post season bound then I'd rather hold onto those pieces and make a move for some pitching in the off-season.

 

I felt things would have to fall just right for the Brewers to get into the post season this year, and things have gone about as badly as they could go from a rotation standpoint, not to mention Hall's continued suckitude plus Hardy and Hart playing below expectations. Another issue that hasn't been widely discussed is Cameron's slide, after batting .333 in April Cameron proceded to hit .247 in May and .149 in June... hopefully he can hit around his career norm from this point foward. Thank goodness McGehee and Counsell have stepped up, because the lineup has been pretty poor out outside of those 2 and Braun/Fielder since May.

 

Maybe the problem wasn't exclusively Yost, maybe the problem is/was that too many of the players in the first wave aren't consistent players yet...

[chansen]

Jeremy Guthrie- Below 4 era in 2007 and 2008. Orioles are probably going to be in sell mode. They will probably be looking at an outfielder and third baseman. Gillespie + 3B.

 

Gil Meche- Innings eater. era will be around 4. Brendan Katin +

 

Ian Snell- Went down to AAA upon request and struck out 17 in 7 innings. Katin +

 

Doug Davis + Felipe Lopez- I was not in favor of this proposal but now I am growing to the idea. Davis will have a sub 4 era and has experience with Milwaukee. Lopez can get on base and good 2B. Also, Davis pitches a little better after the AS break. 3.37 era and a whip of 1.20 career at Miller Park. Offer them a pitching prospect + 1B + Irribaren.

[Invader3K]

I doubt the Pirates would trade Snell for "Katin +". They'd probably want at least one replacement pitcher in return, I'd guess.

[Never Outhustled]

I agree that if DM makes a move it should be for a type A rental if one is available for the right price. My point that I probably didn't express very well is that we need to start thinking long-term here as our first wave of prospects move into FA. As well as the fact that many pitchers in the rotation lack longevity and will need to be replaced in the next 2 seasons as well.

I agree with that. I think the right time to get that pitcher who is a longterm solution is next offseason. I don't think what we do now will impact that.

[UeckerAddict]

Jeremy Guthrie- Below 4 era in 2007 and 2008. Orioles are probably going to be in sell mode. They will probably be looking at an outfielder and third baseman. Gillespie + 3B.

 

Gil Meche- Innings eater. era will be around 4. Brendan Katin +

 

Ian Snell- Went down to AAA upon request and struck out 17 in 7 innings. Katin +

 

Doug Davis + Felipe Lopez- I was not in favor of this proposal but now I am growing to the idea. Davis will have a sub 4 era and has experience with Milwaukee. Lopez can get on base and good 2B. Also, Davis pitches a little better after the AS break. 3.37 era and a whip of 1.20 career at Miller Park. Offer them a pitching prospect + 1B + Irribaren.

If we got Meche, he would still have 2 years at $11 million per after this year. I don't see it.

[Invader3K]

Toronto has now lost three in a row, dropping to fourth place and seven games back in the AL East. If they continue to slip, I still doubt they would be willing to trade Halladay, but I wonder if they would look to trade off other players? Anyone else that should maybe be on Melvin's radar?

[Klements Bratwurst]

Toronto has now lost three in a row, dropping to fourth place and seven games back in the AL East. If they continue to slip, I still doubt they would be willing to trade Halladay, but I wonder if they would look to trade off other players? Anyone else that should maybe be on Melvin's radar?

I read on Mlbtraderumors yesterday that as you suggest, the Jays will not trade Halladay, but may consider dumping Rios or Wells to free up money to resign Halladay. However, "dumping" is what they suggest, I find that very hard to believe. Rios or Wells would look good in a Milwaukee uniform, but respecting the good board moderation here, that discussion is for another thread.

[endaround]

Dumping is pretty much all they can do. Wells is likely just having another of his off years (something that happens every other year). But he's owed $12.5m next year +$8.5m in deferred signing bonus, $23m in 2011, and $21m in 2012-2014. Add in a decline in defense and a full no trade clause and no one will touch that. Rios has a better chance to have a decent season, that said he's owed $9.7m, $12m, $12m, $12.5m, $12.5m and another $1m buyout.

[Invader3K]

Ouch...I can't see the Brewers being willing to take either of those contracts, unless Toronto was willing to take Hall or Suppan in return, or eat a bunch of salary.

[jvrocksaz]

What about Javier Vasquez from Atlanta? He is 32 and his contract runs through next year (11.5 M for 2010)... He has a 3.02 ERA, 1.06 WHIP, 125 K's in 106 IP... Atlanta is now in 4th place in the East even with the top teams struggling...

[wibadgers23]

jvrocksaz[/b]]What about Javier Vasquez from Atlanta? He is 32 and his contract runs through next year (11.5 M for 2010)... He has a 3.02 ERA, 1.06 WHIP, 125 K's in 106 IP... Atlanta is now in 4th place in the East even with the top teams struggling...

I would love to get Vasquez. They need offense and we need pitching. Maybe a deal could be swung to help out both teams.

[fondybrewfan]

They are in 4th place, but NY and PHilly have also sucked for a while now and I doubt the Braves are anywhere near sell mode yet. Especially since they just made a win now move in McClouth.

 

Baltimore, Cleveland, KC, Oakland, Washington, SD, and Arizona are the only teams really out of it right now and there is a reason those teams are out of it, for the most part their pitching sucks. There a couple pitchers like Cliff Lee or Guthrie that are intruging. Maybe Brian Bannister is another option. He got rocked in 2 consecutive starts (15 ER in 8 2/3 innings) and still has an ERA near 4. Not sure what his contract situation is though

[The Truth]

there's alot to like about Vasquez. He's very durable (30+ games started for 9 straight years) and is consistently a strike-out pitcher (career 8.1 K/9), and he can even hit a little bit (career .203 hitter in 570 plate appearances.)

 

While he hasn't had a ton of post-season success he does have post-season experience . He'd be a good addition

[lloydbraun]

why wouldn't a deal involving Vazquez (and maybe Francoeur) for Hart and prospects be out of the question? I also don't like the Francouer bashing because this is a guy who obviously has talent and a great arm. He would not hurt us defensively. He is 25 years old! He hit 29 homeruns in 2006 and 19 in 2007 (w/ 40 doubles). He had a very off year last year, but given his age, he could easily bounce back Vazquez is a stud and I would love to see a 1-2 punch of Gallardo and Vazquez. The only problem is, what would we have to give up to make this trade happen? Hart, Katin, and a young arm?