Time to have a serious discussion about our bench

[TooLiveBrew]

At this point I doubt Jenks is much better than Nelson in the field. And on offense it probably isn't close.

 

I agree with you on Duffy's usefulness & versatility. I'm glad Melvin & Co. were able to mine a cheap 4th/5th OF.

[endaround]

If Cole Gillespie was burning up AAA the Brewers might have a better option. But since Durham doesn't seem interested and Edmonds would likely cost too much for his limited playing time your left with Jenkins, Catalanatto and Iribarren.

[Diskono]

Hardy went 0 for 28 at one point last year while playing full time, should we have sent him to AAA? If your answer is no then you shouldn't be judging Nelson off of 19 AB either. If you thought Nelson being on the team in the first place was a weakness than this validates your point somewhat, otherwise you can't really read anything into it.

If you can still get your numbers up to something respectable with 1 or 2 good games, its way too early to think about replacing someone.

[FVBrewerFan]

Hardy went 0 for 28 at one point last year while playing full time, should we have sent him to AAA? If your answer is no then you shouldn't be judging Nelson off of 19 AB either. If you thought Nelson being on the team in the first place was a weakness than this validates your point somewhat, otherwise you can't really read anything into it.

Apples and oranges. Hardy is a full time player, and there will be slumps. It is a pinch hitter's job to actually HIT once in a while. It may not be fair, but there's no sense using a PH who is 0-19. I'm not saying dump him. In fact, I think he needs to start a couple more games for more ABs to get his confidence back, get comfortable, etc. In the meantime, what you need to find is a couple players who are comfortable getting that one AB a night, or every other night. The problem isn't Nelson, it's that Counsell is the only bench player who can be trusted right now to PH.

[jazzytrav]

Good thing we traded Gabe Gross.

[sargennm]

Good thing we traded Gabe Gross.

He's obviously performed well in Tampa since the trade, but I would like to point out he was hitting .091 through his first 22 at bats last season.

[jazzytrav]

He's obviously performed well in Tampa since the trade, but I would like to point out he was hitting .091 through his first 22 at bats last season.

 

And .333 in his next 21 at-bats before being traded. Not that either sample is really telling of anything...just like I don't think Nelson's start tells us anything yet.

 

I just liked Gabe Gross, and despised the fact that we traded him and kept Gwynn.

[JohnBriggs12]

The Brewers have been lucky so far in that neither Duffy nor Nelson has been needed for other than PH and very spot duty. But after outstanding Aprils, Cameron and Hart are showing signs of reverting to the mean. Cameron is hitting .212/.316/.364 in May and Hart is hitting .220/.273/.293 and hasn't hit a HR in nearly a month. That was to be expected but if they fall into prolonged slumps, then Macha has little option but to hope they come out it. He doesn't have guys that he can stick in there for a couple days like he had with Counsell in for Hardy.

[sargennm]

jazzytrav wrote:

 

Not that either sample is really telling of anything...just like I don't think Nelson's start tells us anything yet.

Just to be clear, that was my point as well. Many people were all over Gabe Gross at this point last year and he broke out of it right before the trade and did well in Tampa. On the bright side, if the bench remains the glaring problem as we get to the All-Star break, I think that's a fairly easy issue to address via trade.

[dadofandrew]

A tiny sample out of a small sample doesn't indicate much, but Briggs is correct that if Braun or Hart go down for 3 weeks, there is not much of a replacement in house.

[hauser42]

Hart or Braun go down for an extended time the discussion has to be about bringing Gamel up. The second part of that discussion is do they play him at 3B and move Hall to the OF or move Gamel to the OF. Marlins just moved of Coghlan and the plan is to have him learn left field on the fly.

[Never Outhustled]

Hart or Braun go down for an extended time the discussion has to be about bringing Gamel up. The second part of that discussion is do they play him at 3B and move Hall to the OF or move Gamel to the OF.

Your right, Gamel is just waiting for a spot to get his bat into the lineup. As to where he should play, I'd rather have a poor defender in LF, than a below average one at 3B, and below average might be too positive. I think using him in the OF also makes Duffy useful, as a defensive replacement and sometimes PR/defensive replacement. 3 ABs for Gamel and 3 innings of Duffy defensively is a pretty good LF.

[lukevan]

Gamel hasn't played any OF though. I doubt he'd be called up to start in the OF at the MLB level.

I'd like to see us sign Jim Edmonds if Hart or Braun go to the DL.

I never liked the Gabe Gross trade; we sure could use him this year.

[JJHardy7]

Hart or Braun go down for an extended time the discussion has to be about bringing Gamel up. The second part of that discussion is do they play him at 3B and move Hall to the OF or move Gamel to the OF. Marlins just moved of Coghlan and the plan is to have him learn left field on the fly.

 

This goes for X's comment too. I've discussed this quite a bit with him http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif There is ZERO chance Gamel comes up this year and plays OF. Zero. Hall would be moving to the OF. Does Gamel only get ripped on his defense when it sucks? What about the past few weeks? I haven't heard as much about it lately http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif Gamel is a 3B and that is where he will stay. If he doesn't make the progress needed, it will happen next year. From what I've heard in Nashville, Gamel isn't going anywhere besides 3B. If he cleans up his footwork and mental things, he's better than Hall at 3B. If you haven't seen him play, you can't comment on that...at all. Hall loves his 'double pump fake' business and it's a joke at times. Gamel will be better at 3B than Hall. Let's give Gamel time to develop and so far he's taking it all in. Putting Gamel in the OF this year would be one of the worst moves the current office could ever make. You can find OFs. It's a lot harder to find a bat like Gamel's in the OF. The ONLY way that happens is if Hart is traded in the off-season or moved to CF. Braun would've sucked in the OF if moved during the year. He had a decent part of the off-season to work on it. I also can tell you Gamel wants to be at 3B. I doubt any fielder at any level works that much harder than Mat does.

 

Again, I don't get the position switch thing that always exists with some here. Is it wrong to develop guys? Or should we put the bat where it can play every time and always have a weakness somewhere? The Brewers don't 'need' Mat's bat now. They will need it going forward though and if he's not at 3B the team has wasted a ton of time and to be honest I would raise big questions about the minor league operations.

 

If Hart or Braun go down for a few weeks (let's say 3), they'd put Nelson there. If it was longer than that, they might make a move. Nelson has played plenty of OF. If you believe he'll keep not hitting, then I guess that's a different story. Brad will be fine. I do respect the thoughts about the bench and him though. He really needs to getting going soon.

[Never Outhustled]

I'd like to see us sign Jim Edmonds if Hart or Braun go to the DL.

If we had extra money to throw around, we'd have thrown it around already. Edmonds is not playing because nobody wants him, he's not playing because nobody wants him at his pricetag.

[Eddiehitsthefoulpole]

I wonder if the problem with some of our bench production isn't lack of playing time. Their numbers might improve a bit if they played more. I am not saying Macha is wrong about playing time, I am saying that if Hart or Braun goes down and Nelson gets some regular playing time that his numbers may balance out and improve.

[davego]

I agree with Augie. It is a trap to some extent. Your numbers don't go up unless you get a chance for them to go up. A little playing time seems to help guys. Now, it's just May, so I'd suspect as we get into the summer; a few more ab's going the way of the reserves.

[Ennder]

If we had extra money to throw around, we'd have thrown it around already. Edmonds is not playing because nobody wants him, he's not playing because nobody wants him at his pricetag.

I think nobody wants to give him full time ABs vs RH hitters is the real reason. He is waiting for someone to get hurt and a team to NEED him to come play full time.

[Never Outhustled]

If he cleans up his footwork and mental things, he's better than Hall at 3B. If you haven't seen him play, you can't comment on that...at all. Hall loves his 'double pump fake' business and it's a joke at times. Gamel will be better at 3B than Hall. Let's give Gamel time to develop and so far he's taking it all in.

Gamel has had his whole life to develop, he has played about 5 times as many games at 3B as Hall, yet he's not close defensively. He's just not the same athlete. Could you imagine Gamel trying to play SS, 2B, or CF?

 

 

 

lukevan wrote:

Gamel hasn't played any OF though. I doubt he'd be called up to start in the OF at the MLB level.

 

 

JJHardy7 wrote:

 

Putting Gamel in the OF this year would be one of the worst moves the current office could ever make.

The Mets just did that last year with Daniel Murphy, and it was a major positive for them. Murphy's UZR/150 was above average despite never having played the position, and he hit. The difference between him and Gamel is that Gamel is a much better hitter at the minor league level.

[lukevan]

But the Mets also had a hole in the corner OF. The Brewers likely have Hart and Braun out there for another 2-3 years at least. If Gamel can stick at 3B, he's much more valuable. It behooves us to give him time to develop defensively. If we lost one of Hart and Braun for the year, I think signing Edmonds for $2-3 mil would be smart.

[Never Outhustled]

If Gamel can stick at 3B, he's much more valuable.

Not necessarily, because at 3B his defense subtracts from his offense, at another position, it will be easier for him to be above average, and even if he isn't its a smaller impact on the total defense. In LF, he'd just have to be better than Lee, Duncan, and Soriano to be in the top half of the division defensively.

 

The Brewers likely have Hart and Braun out there for another 2-3 years at least.

Hart is under control for 2 more years, not 3. Who is the 3rd outfielder next year? We have a 3B for next year already too.

 

We're a serious contender this year. If we need Gamel, we'll use him.

[JJHardy7]

Not necessarily, because at 3B his defense subtracts from his offense, at another position, it will be easier for him to be above average, and even if he isn't its a smaller impact on the total defense. In LF, he'd just have to be better than Lee, Duncan, and Soriano to be in the top half of the division defensively.

 

How? You are failing to realize any positives. I would suggest you go to Nashville and see a game. Gamel will be ready for a late June/early July call up.

 

Again X, where the heck is he going to play? Please tell me. This team doesn't have a huge hole. I don't say this to be a jerk, but right now there's no reason to get upset that Mat isn't in the lineup. I think Mat is going to be pretty darn good, but I also don't see an opportunity for him right now. That's what happens when you have a good team. Again, please trash all your Mat sucks at defense thoughts back to the minor league thread. I don't think Mat will have any impact this year on the bench and he will be the starting Brewers 3B for a long time when he is called up. Again, go see a game at Nashville the past few weeks. Gamel will be fine at 3B. Moving Mat off of 3B AGAIN would be one of the worst moves this organization would make under the current leadership. It's easy to find corner OFs....why in the world waste Gamel there? His defense will play and IMO he's made huge strides this year/he was hurt coming into the season and is now healthy. Where is your error count X? You used to post it every time he made one in the minor league thread...haven't seen you post a thing positive in the past three weeks or so about that...

[lukevan]

Not necessarily, because at 3B his defense subtracts from his offense, at another position, it will be easier for him to be above average, and even if he isn't its a smaller impact on the total defense. In LF, he'd just have to be better than Lee, Duncan, and Soriano to be in the top half of the division defensively.

 

Right, but if he can be an average fielder at 3B, his bat will most certainly make him an above average player there. I'm pretty much banking on Gamel in AAA until September except in the case of injury. Maybe I'm wrong in thinking that.

 

Who is the 3rd outfielder next year?

 

I don't know, I'm assuming you're advocating moving Hart to CF then? I'm not a believer in Hart playing CF, meaning I also believe we can't play all three (Braun/Hart/Gamel) in the OF next season. Our OF defense would be pretty ugly IMO. Either way it appears Gamel is blocked for this season and next, unless Hall resumes a super-sub role or moves back to CF in 2010 or Corey Hart or Bill Hall get traded. I don't know if Hall playing CF is much better an option than a Braun/Hart/Gamel OF. Trade Hall for a CF-capable OF with one year left on his contract? I doubt you'd get that great of a player. It'd be great if Cain was ready for 2010.

 

In short, Doug should have some interesting decisions this next offseason.

[Never Outhustled]

Again X, where the heck is he going to play? Please tell me. This team doesn't have a huge hole.

Trying reading a few of the posts. The concern was who would play in the OF if Braun or Hart were injured. Its a real concern with Braun recent injury scare.

 

 

 

I don't say this to be a jerk, but right now there's no reason to get upset that Mat isn't in the lineup.

 

Calling me out without reading the context of the posts is being a jerk. I quoted one of the posts I was referencing to make it easy for you to understand my response, so go back and look at it. You seem overly emotional to an otherwise civil and intelligent conversation.

 

Where is your error count X? You used to post it every time he made one in the minor league thread...haven't seen you post a thing positive in the past three weeks or so about that...

I think you need to go back to that thread and see who actually has been posting his errors as they happen. You need some serious fact checking. Maybe then you'll realize I'm not the only one concerned.

 

It's easy to find corner OFs....why in the world waste Gamel there?

If its so easy to find 850-950 OPS OF, then why is there so few of them? Last year the league average OPS in LF was just 785. 3B was 771, so its really not the difference you keep alluding to at all. Next time you get your undies in a bundle, do some fact checking. Trying to call me out will be a losing battle. I hope we can discuss The Brewers in a more civil manner in the future.

[Invader3K]

- Trying reading a few of the posts. The concern was who would play in the OF if Braun or Hart were injured. Its a real concern with Braun recent injury scare.

 

- If its so easy to find 850-950 OPS OF, then why is there so few of them? Last year the league average OPS in LF was just 785. 3B was 771, so its really not the difference you keep alluding to at all. Next time you get your undies in a bundle, do some fact checking. Trying to call me out will be a losing battle. I hope we can discuss The Brewers in a more civil manner in the future.

Just to respond to these two things:

 

- Braun's injury scare, as you call it, seems to have been a non-issue. He was the NL Player of the Week last week. I don't think it's time to be panicking about possible replacements.

 

- Again, Gamel has never played the OF before. What's to say he's just going to make this instant transition to the OF? Duffy or Nelson can fill in if need be. Yes, the production won't be there, but at least they've played the position before.

 

And as far as Corey Hart, it sounds like the Brewers have completely dropped any idea of him playing CF, if you go off what's been said in the media. I would guess we're either going to see Cameron re-signed, Lorenzo Cain called up, or a cheap one year guy signed for next year.