Scoring question...

[clancyphile]

This is one of those "in general" questions that I have seen a few times, either at minor-league games I have gone to over the years, or when following the Brewers.

 

In tonight's game, Hart leads off with a double, then Braun follows with what is called a single - yet Braun ended up on second base (which would arguably make his hit a double, not a single), with them explaining that "Braun had gone to second on the throw."

 

What exactly is the "rule" regarding this.Is it a hard-and-fast rule, or just the call the official scorer makes?

[Ennder]

It is an official scorer's call on things like that. They try to interpret what would have happened in a vaccuum on plays like that. Same reason Braun got a hit on the ball that hit Hart, they decided that if it had not hit Hart it would have been a single.

[olliegjw]

It is an official scorer's call on things like that. They try to interpret what would have happened in a vaccuum on plays like that. Same reason Braun got a hit on the ball that hit Hart, they decided that if it had not hit Hart it would have been a single.

There is no judegement call on a ball that hits a runner. It is automatically a hit, even if it would have been a routine play.

[Ennder]

It is an official scorer's call on things like that. They try to interpret what would have happened in a vaccuum on plays like that. Same reason Braun got a hit on the ball that hit Hart, they decided that if it had not hit Hart it would have been a single.

There is no judegement call on a ball that hits a runner. It is automatically a hit, even if it would have been a routine play.

Yep your right, just looked it up. The only judgement call is which fielder is closer to give the credit for the out.

[joepepsi]

So why do intentional walks count against the pitcher as a walk, but the batter doesn't get credited for a walk? And shouldn't a hbp count as a walk too?

[Baldkin]

HBP has its own 'category' the same sense that a walk is different from a single.

 

I've never heard IBB being seperated from normal BB on a hitter's OBP or anything like that.

[1992casey]

The batter gets credited for a walk when he's walked intentionally. That's one of the reasons Barry Bonds' OBP was so high. Likewise, getting hit by a pitch counts toward a batter's OBP.

[Bikeage77]

How do you score Hart being out after being hit by Braun's hit? I was half listening on the radio right after the play but is Hart ruled 4U on the putout?

[mls4]

How do you score Hart being out after being hit by Braun's hit? I was half listening on the radio right after the play but is Hart ruled 4U on the putout?

Yes I believe that's what it is. The putout goes to the closest fielder. One of those odd baseball rules.

[joepepsi]

As long as we're talking about weird scoring rules, I think it's wacked the catcher gets putout credit for a strikeout. Kendall had 1025 PO last year!

[And That]

I've never heard IBB being seperated from normal BB on a hitter's OBP or anything like that.

The basic OBP formula is (H+BB+HBP)/(AB+BB+HBP+SF) - however, I've seen more elaborate versions of OBP. An old Bill James article I used to have calculated OBP as something like (H+BB+HPB)/(AB+BB+IBB+HBP+SF+CI). I think the logic behind not crediting OBP on an intentional walk is that it takes no effort on the batter's part to reach base on an IBB... even with a HBP, you have to get hit in the body with a ball.

[DuWayne Steurer]

There's a lot wrong with how defensive statistics are compiled.

 

On a routine base hit to left that the outfielder scoops up and lobs back to the infield, there is no statistical data, and no *chance* recorded.

 

However, if said outfielder bobbles the ball or lets it skip under his glove and the runner gets a base because of it, it now becomes a *chance*, and an error.

 

Even last night, as BA pointed out on the television broadcase, on the aborted steal attempt by Hunter Pence, Rickie made a great diving catch of the ball thrown by Kendall (though one could argue Rickie should have been there already, ready to take the throw), and there's nothing statistical recorded about it. Had he NOT made the catch, either Weeks or Kendall get credited with both a chance and an error when Pence then takes that base.

 

And when you look at it, everything is a "chance" for an error, any and every single time a fielder touches (or tries to) the ball. In that aspect, the idea of "fielding percentage" is more or less critically flawed.

[joepepsi]

But an IBB shouldn't count against the hitter. Generally speaking, the pitcher IBB's the hitter because he's scared to pitch to him. That hitter should be credit for that.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I've never heard IBB being seperated from normal BB on a hitter's OBP or anything like that.

The basic OBP formula is (H+BB+HBP)/(AB+BB+HBP+SF) - however, I've seen more elaborate versions of OBP. An old Bill James article I used to have calculated OBP as something like (H+BB+HPB)/(AB+BB+IBB+HBP+SF+CI). I think the logic behind not crediting OBP on an intentional walk is that it takes no effort on the batter's part to reach base on an IBB... even with a HBP, you have to get hit in the body with a ball.

I don't like that formula though, because whether or not the batter had to put effort into attaining that walk, he did reach base, he did not record an out, and it does increase that team's run scoring probability in that given inning. Given that we now use OBP, SLG, OPS and others to calculate run probability to a very high degree, I think it's only right that intentional walks are counted, as they are part of the formula.

[topper09er]

As long as we're talking about weird scoring rules, I think it's wacked the catcher gets putout credit for a strikeout. Kendall had 1025 PO last year!

This is because the catcher has to catch the ball to record the out, if he doesn't catch he has to throw the runner out at first. The real reason for this is that this was not an easy/automatic thing 100 years with very bad catcher's equiptment, so actually catching some pitchers 90 mph pitch with basically a piece of leather on your hand was impressive.

[topper09er]

Another question I thought of when Ellsbury sole home last night, what is the ruling if he is hit by the pitch? I looked in the major league rule book and there is nothing in the chapter on the runner (ch. 7) that says what happens if a runner is hit by a pitch. It does state that if the catcher is on the plate or in front of it without the ball or touches the batter at all or the bat, the ruling is a balk and the batter gets first, but it does not talk about what happens if the pitch hits the runner. Is he out, is it a dead ball, is it automatically a strike, is it some kind of interferance call? If he is out does that mean the pitcher should try to hit him if he sees him stealing home and he is out? What happens if the batter hits his own runner with a swing?

 

These all seem pretty unlikely to happen, but after watching Ellsbury steal home last night he actually was pretty close to being hit by Pettite's pitch. Anyone ever seen this happen?

[joepepsi]

Well I guess it would be the same ruling as if the pitcher hit a guy trying to steal 2nd.

[Fatter than Joey]

Well I guess it would be the same ruling as if the pitcher hit a guy trying to steal 2nd.

 

Definitely not -- because when the pitcher throws to 2nd he is doing so, off of the rubber and is not a pitcher -- he is a fielder.

 

If a runner gets hit by a pitch and it is a strike, it is a strike and the runs scores -- I think the only caveat is, if there are 2 outs and 2 strikes, and the runner is hit by a pitched ball, and the ump calls a strike -- the batter is out, and the run does not score.

 

Some ump should make sure I am correct.

[topper09er]

Well I guess it would be the same ruling as if the pitcher hit a guy trying to steal 2nd.

No, that would be a balk becaues a pitcher has to pitch towards home plate so it would be a dead ball and all runners advance one base.

[topper09er]

Well I guess it would be the same ruling as if the pitcher hit a guy trying to steal 2nd.

 

Definitely not -- because when the pitcher throws to 2nd he is doing so, off of the rubber and is not a pitcher -- he is a fielder.

 

If a runner gets hit by a pitch and it is a strike, it is a strike and the runs scores -- I think the only caveat is, if there are 2 outs and 2 strikes, and the runner is hit by a pitched ball, and the ump calls a strike -- the batter is out, and the run does not score.

 

Some ump should make sure I am correct.

Interesting but I am wondering what you are basing this on since it is not covered at all in the rule book. Is this your opinion/how you would rule if you were the umpire?

 

Im not sure you can call the batter out on a strikeout because the catcher did not catch the ball, so the batter is not out until he is putout at first base or tagged. So lets say your scenario above, 2 outs 2 stikes, pitch hits the runner stealing home for a strike and bounces far away and the batter is safe at first on a strikeout, that would score a run, although it seems not fair to the defense because the catcher never had a chance to catch the ball. Would it be the same ruling if it was only strike 1 or 2? Could other runners advance more bases if the ball bounced off of the runner stealing home far from the catcher (could a runner go from 1st to 3rd on this play?)

[topper09er]

So why do intentional walks count against the pitcher as a walk, but the batter doesn't get credited for a walk? And shouldn't a hbp count as a walk too?

What doesnt make sense about this is that a HBP does not affect a pitcher's WHIP. (WHIP = BB + Hits/IP, NOT BB+Hits+HBP/IP)

[Fatter than Joey]

So lets say your scenario above, 2 outs 2 stikes, pitch hits the runner stealing home for a strike and bounces far away and the batter is safe at first on a strikeout, that would score a run, although it seems not fair to the defense because the catcher never had a chance to catch the ball.

 

I am certain that if the batter has 2 strikes, and the runner is it by a strike, the ball is dead and the batter is out.

 

If the ball hits the runner stealing home, it's a deadball, I think runners can advance one base.

[Fatter than Joey]

6.05n -- With two out, a runner on third base, and two strikes on the batter, the runner attempts to steal home base on a legal pitch and the ball touches the runner in the batter's strike zone. The umpire shall call "Strike Three," the batter is out and the run shall not count; before two are out, the umpire shall call "Strike Three," the ball is dead, and the run counts.

 

5.09n -- Any legal pitch touches a runner trying to score; runners advance.

 

So I think that the umpire calls the pitch a ball or a strike -- and then the ball is dead and runners advance.

[topper09er]

6.05n -- With two out, a runner on third base, and two strikes on the batter, the runner attempts to steal home base on a legal pitch and the ball touches the runner in the batter's strike zone. The umpire shall call "Strike Three," the batter is out and the run shall not count; before two are out, the umpire shall call "Strike Three," the ball is dead, and the run counts.

 

5.09n -- Any legal pitch touches a runner trying to score; runners advance.

 

So I think that the umpire calls the pitch a ball or a strike -- and then the ball is dead and runners advance.

Nice work, I did not think to look under the batter for this situation. Also, this is interesting, if Pettite's pitch would have hit Ellsbury it would have benefited the Red Sox because the other runner on 2nd would have been awarded 3rd.

[clancyphile]

OK... that 8th inning play involving Rickie Weeks goes down as a "failed fielder's choice."

 

Isn't "infield single" a more appropriate term?