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It would be nice if the starting pitcher went 7 more often


mls4

The bullpen wouldn't get so much criticism if the starters would go a bit deeper in games.

 

Yesterday Bush was the first Brewer starter to go 7 full innings this year, although the rotation did have 8 quality starts of 6 innings. (This was the 3rd from Bush, 2 from Gallardo, Looper and 1 from Parra and Suppan)

 

But this means we went 14 straight games without a 7-inning start, and it's only the 4th time in Brewer history that happened:

 

April 2004- went 19 games from the start of the season before Ben Sheets went 7 2/3 in a loss to St. Louis. Rotation consisted of Sheets (4 starts), Doug Davis (4), Matt Kinney (4), Wes Obermueller (3), and Chris Capuano (3) with Chris Saenz making a spot start.

 

Apr-May 1997- went 17 games between a Ben McDonald 7-inning start and a Cal Eldred 7-inning start. McDonald (3), Eldred (4), Scott Karl (4), Jeff D'Amico (4), Jose Mercedes (1), and Jamie McAndrew (1) made starts during that period.

 

May-June 1975- went 14 games between a complete game from Jim Colborn and a 7-inning start by Bill Castro. Colborn (2), Castro (1), Jim Slaton (3), Ed Sprague (2), Pete Broberg (3), Bill Travers (2), and Bill Champion (1) all started games during the streak.

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I think that the 6-inning start is mislabled as a quality start. It is more of a minimally competent start. I think that 7 innings constitute a quality start. 3 innings of bullpen work usually requires 4 pitchers. 2 innings usally requires 2 pitchers. A lot less can go wrong in 2 innings of your best relief pitchers than 3 innings worth of 4 pitchers.
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When these stretches occur after April that's when maybe I'd be a little more worried. Managers tend to err on the side of caution with pitch counts this early. Not to mention the incredible back-to-back starts just put up the past two days. That helps put things at ease as well.
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  • 2 weeks later...
Bush with another 7 inning start today. Of course if you check the MLB leaders he is at the top of the league in HBP. The Mad Plumber returns.

Fan is short for fanatic.

I blame Wang.

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The bullpen wouldn't get so much criticism if the starters would go a bit deeper in games.

 

Yesterday Bush was the first Brewer starter to go 7 full innings this year

?? I seem to remember Yo being left in to hit for himself in the bottom of the 7th when he hit a game winning HR and then pitching a scoreless 8th inning.
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The bullpen wouldn't get so much criticism if the starters would go a bit deeper in games.

 

I decided to look at number of innings pitched by our starters compared to the rest of the NL.

 

Team Games IP IP/G
Pittsburgh 24 148.667 6.19
Cincy 24 148.333 6.18
Arizona 25 151.333 6.05
St. Louis 25 149.333 5.97
Chicago 24 142.333 5.93
Milwaukee 25 147.000 5.88
San Fran 23 135.000 5.87
Atlanta 24 140.667 5.86
Florida 25 143.000 5.72
San Diego 25 139.333 5.57
Colorado 23 126.333 5.49
Los Angeles 26 142.333 5.47
Washington 23 124.667 5.42
New York 23 124.333 5.41
Philly 22 118.000 5.36
Houston 25 134.000 5.36

 

I have it sorted from most innings per game by SPs to least innings per game by SPs. Currently the Brewers are in the upper half of the NL.

 

This next table list is ranking the number of innings pitched by the bullpen per game, going from fewest to most. Again, it appears that the strain on the Bullpen hasn't been that great compared to the rest of the NL.

 

Team Games IP IP/G
Pittsburgh 24 63.000 2.63
Cincy 24 63.667 2.65
Atlanta 24 70.333 2.93
Arizona 25 73.667 2.95
Milwaukee 25 74.667 2.99
St. Louis 25 75.000 3.00
Chicago 24 72.333 3.01
San Fran 23 70.667 3.07
Colorado 23 73.000 3.17
Florida 25 80.000 3.20
San Diego 25 81.000 3.24
Los Angeles 26 84.667 3.26
Washington 23 76.667 3.33
New York 23 78.000 3.39
Houston 25 88.000 3.52
Philly 22 80.000 3.64

Starting Pitchers - Pitches/Game

 

Team Games Pitches Pitches/G
Washington 23 2032.000 88.35
Houston 25 2223.000 88.92
Colorado 23 2129.000 92.57
Los Angeles 26 2412.000 92.77
San Diego 25 2322.000 92.88
Philly 22 2054.000 93.36
Atlanta 24 2294.000 95.58
New York 23 2199.000 95.61
St. Louis 25 2397.000 95.88
Arizona 25 2399.000 95.96
San Fran 23 2208.000 96.00
Milwaukee 25 2409.000 96.36
Pittsburgh 24 2313.000 96.38
Florida 25 2435.000 97.40
Chicago 24 2338.000 97.42
Cincy 24 2407.000 100.29

Relief Pitchers - Pitches/Game

 

Team Games Pitches Pitches/G
Pittsburgh 24 1066.000 44.42
Cincy 24 1082.000 45.08
St. Louis 25 1193.000 47.72
Arizona 25 1221.000 48.84
Milwaukee 25 1263.000 50.52
Los Angeles 26 1334.000 51.31
Colorado 23 1225.000 53.26
Atlanta 24 1281.000 53.38
San Fran 23 1279.000 55.61
New York 23 1288.000 56.00
Chicago 24 1377.000 57.38
San Diego 25 1439.000 57.56
Florida 25 1442.000 57.68
Washington 23 1349.000 58.65
Houston 25 1522.000 60.88
Philly 22 1406.000 63.91
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While I do not mind that my post has been revived, I may not have written the same things today that I did 10 days ago. The bullpen has not been used the same in the past 10 days.

 

However, I still think that 7 innings is a reasonable goal for a starting pitcher and that Brewer pitchers have not done it often enough. In 25 games, there have only been 5 starts of at least 7 innings. On the other hand, it's been 12 games since a pitcher had to come out before pitching at least 5 innings and that has only happened 4 times all season. A starting pitcher has not come out of the game before the 4th all season. So the bullpen at least has not had to cover a lot of innings that way.

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The more pitches a starting pitcher throws and the more times a batter sees that pitcher, the more the advantage swings to the offense. I don't want guys like Looper and especially Suppan going deep into games very often, even if they have success early on. Managers make that mistake all the time. It could be a career 5.25 ERA starting pitcher but if he has had 6 good innings in a row, he'll trot him out there for the 7th. to face the top of the order, after already throwing 100 pitches.
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While I do not mind that my post has been revived, I may not have written the same things today that I did 10 days ago.
Yeah, it's not really fair to quote the OP and refute it with new information a week and a half later. (Perhaps that wasn't the intention, but that's what at least one of the posts above looked like.) In the last 10 games I calculate a 6.43 innings average for our starters. Dramatic improvement from where we were on April 24th when the thread was authored. Perhaps as much as a full inning.
"We all know he is going to be a flaming pile of Suppan by that time." -fondybrewfan
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The initial post contained some interesting information but if it could change so muich after only 1 week, is was probably nothing to be worried about. The only thing worth getting too worried about in April are injuries and team record.
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However, I still think that 7 innings is a reasonable goal for a starting pitcher and that Brewer pitchers have not done it often enough.

 

I think 7 innings is a good goal, but shouldn't be the expectation (especially in the NL). As you can see above, the NL leading team is averaging only 6.19 Innings per start. I think we should expect 5, be happy with 6, and rejoice with 7+.

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I want our pitchers to go 6 and then if the 7th inning starts out well finish 7. I don't believe an expectation of 7 innings is realistic anymore. Hitters just work the count too much and the lineups are too stacked to just lob it in there and let them hit it like in the past.
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I think 7 innings is a good goal, but shouldn't be the expectation (especially in the NL). As you can see above, the NL leading team is averaging only 6.19 Innings per start. I think we should expect 5, be happy with 6, and rejoice with 7+.
The more pitches a starting pitcher throws and the more times a batter sees that pitcher' date=' the more the advantage swings to the offense. I don't want guys like Looper and especially Suppan going deep into games very often, even if they have success early on. Managers make that mistake all the time. It could be a career 5.25 ERA starting pitcher but if he has had 6 good innings in a row, he'll trot him out there for the 7th. to face the top of the order, after already throwing 100 pitches.[/quote']

Good points-- I'm not necessarily expecting 7 innings every game, as long as the average is 6 innings that is probably not a problem, but my point is more about overusing the best bullpen arms. The more Coffey, Villanueva etc. are used, the more likely they give up runs and leads.Why was everyone so excited to get Scherzer out of the game the other day? Because we got to see middle relief, the weakest part of the pitching staff. Maybe Coffey et al. are better options than Suppan in the 7th inning, but not every game. Of course, if McClung and Julio prove to be reliable late-inning options and those arms can be rotated through, as well as DiFelice, I will likely be pleased with 6 innings.

 

The initial post contained some interesting information but if it could change so muich after only 1 week, is was probably nothing to be worried about.

Just to clarify, I wasn't worried. Though I did see bullpen overuse as a potential problem, the main intent of the post was the information.

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mls4 wrote:

However, I still think that 7 innings is a reasonable goal for a starting pitcher and that Brewer pitchers have not done it often enough.

Let's remember this doesn't take place in a vacuum. It's not as if the starter wasn't capable of going deeper into games this year, but they were pulled for a PH. That detrmines whther the SP gets an extra inning more than any other factor. If the Brewers were even a little above average in hitting w/RISP they wouldn't need a PH in the 6th inning so often.
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Just face it - the game has changed.

 

This past Sunday Fergie Jenkins and Greg Maddux had their common number 31 retired by the Cubs.

 

From 1967 thru 1972 Fergie won 20 or more games each year.

During that span he averaged 306 innings innings pitched and 23.3 complete games.

 

How many of today's pitchers pitch more than 250 or 5 complete games?

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