Weeks weakness---The side-arm sling

[rickh150]

We are pulling for Rickie Weeks, especially these days. We hope he is the answer at the top of the order, and in large part has done average to above average work at the plate this year. Even last year his OBP was respectable. What worries me about him being our 2B is his turning two ability. Particularly, the way he throws a side-armed, off your back foot, wildish in the dirt, where's it going to go throw, while on the bag, is troublesome. I don't know why this isn't mentioned by Schroeder,Uecker, or someone at least once a week. Normal 2B throw the ball over the top and step into the throw for accuracy and to get the ball to first faster. I'm interested in hearing if Randolph has been helping him with this problem. Although Weeks hasn't been terrible in the field this year or last, he is at the bottom of the barrel at turning two. My opininon is that he should be taken out of every close game that the Brewers are winning in the late innings until he corrects this crucial part of being a major league second baseman. Somewhere, Gantner knows what I'm talking about.

[liveforoctober]

Your post actually raises a very good point... and IMO, it has nothing to do with your post.

 

Collectively, we have gone from ripping Rickie Weeks apart: "He can't hit, he can't field, he can't throw, he is fast but can't run the bases, etc..." ... to now having someone post about Weeks inability to throw over the top on a double play turn. Needless to say, the kid has progressed in many ways. I think it is obvious he was hurt by getting pulled up too fast after Spivey was traded and equally hurt confidence wise by the constant abuse from the media and fan base. (Whether or not media and fan scrutiny or praise should affect an athlete's performance is another topic)

 

Needless to say, he has rebounded nicely and I think has finally found a pair of coaches (Randolph and Sveum) who can coach up his strengths and weaknesses both at the plate and in the field. He has been above average thus far this season which has been hampered slightly by our 3,4,5 blackhole... and I am excited to see Weeks in a few months when his confidence finally returns to where it was when he was in the minor leagues.

 

Also, I actually think Weeks has been a positive defensively this year. He has made some outstanding plays.

[topper09er]

THANK YOU, this really bothers me every time he turns 2. I agree 100%. This exact scenario has already cost us 1 game this year. Remember the Saturday Cubs game, there was the crucial double play in the 7th inning where Weeks threw his usual lazy sidearmed garabage throw and Prince actually made a nice scoop and Soriano looked out on the replay but was called safe...although if Prince would have caught the ball in the air the umpire would have definetly called Soriano out thus making his 9th inning HR only a game tying rather than leading taking HR. And lets not even get into the game he blew last year against the Cubs that CC started and we lost on our to getting swept by the Cubs, again because he threw away a double play with his horrible sidearm throw.

 

I feel like this is something any high school coach would correct with a high school 2nd baseman, and I dont buy the whole "well he's too old now to change how he throws," I think that is a terrible excuse. Someone (I can do it if necesary) needs to show him how to put his left foot on the base, step to the ball with his right foot, and then step into his over-the-top hard throw, and jump to avoid the runner if necesary. Major leaguers should have proper fundamentals.

[topper09er]

Wow, I went back and looked at the 2 games I mentioned above, and they are very similar. In both games (April 11 2009 and July 28 2008) Top of 7th, against Cubs, score is 3-2 brewers.

 

08 game: inning goes single, single, K, walk, (bases loaded 1 out) FC Hardy-to-Weeks-E4 on throw to first, 2 runs score, Cubs win by 2.

 

this year: inning goes walk, single, single, K, (bases loaded 1 out) FC Hardy-to-Weeks-1 hopper to first runner called safe, 1 run scores, Cubs win by 1.

 

I guess Counsel should play against the Cubs in every 7th innings if we are leading 3-2.

[Gobias Industries]

I agree that Counsell should definitely be in during the 9th if we're up in a tight game. He's had only 1 misplay turning two this year, and that was Saturday when he couldn't get the ball out of his glove.

 

The play against the Cubs was a joke. I was at the game and slightly buzzed and could see that the Cubs' baserunner was out by a half-step. Sure, it wasn't a good throw, but it shouldn't matter. Prince finally bailed him out, and the ump just blew the call.

[theavrock]

Remember the Saturday Cubs game, there was the crucial double play in the 7th inning where Weeks threw his usual lazy sidearmed garabage throw and Prince actually made a nice scoop and Soriano looked out on the replay but was called safe...although if Prince would have caught the ball in the air the umpire would have definetly called Soriano out thus making his 9th inning HR only a game tying rather than leading taking HR.

 

So you are saying the ump blew the call because it was a throw in the dirt? Really? THrows like that happen every day in baseball, to good fielders and bad. Are you honestly saying that Rickie's defense has been that poor this year? The only play I can think of that he blew was the ball that went through his glove the other night against the Mets.

Sometimes professional ball players and athletes of all kinds have non-traditional quirks in their game. Im not comparing Weeks to Favre but Favre's unorthodox style frustrated Holmgren to no end when he was a young QB. But think of the QB he would have been if they never let Favre throw off his back foot.

 

Rickie has improved his defense tremendously and has been anything but a liability. Whether or not he keeps it up all year is something to be determined, but so far he has made some great plays out there.

[GormanHarvey]

I have mentioned this more than once, but Rickie DID NOT blow that double play on saturday against the cubs; the ump blew the call. I was sitting in the first row in the Loge level on the 3rd base side and I could see clearly with my naked eye that he was out by at least a half a step. It was a scoop play and Prince did a nice job with it, but short hop throws like that really do not slow down the time it takes to get there. The throw was perfectly on line, just a little low. Like theavrock said, plays like that happen all the time. Look at how many balls D Lee scoops out of the dirt. Throws in the dirt on plays where middle infielders have to get rid of the ball quickly, whether it be because it was hit in the hole or up the middle or on a DP, are almost expected and most self-respecting 1st basemen expect to dig out the majority of them.

[topper09er]

Remember the Saturday Cubs game, there was the crucial double play in the 7th inning where Weeks threw his usual lazy sidearmed garabage throw and Prince actually made a nice scoop and Soriano looked out on the replay but was called safe...although if Prince would have caught the ball in the air the umpire would have definetly called Soriano out thus making his 9th inning HR only a game tying rather than leading taking HR.

 

So you are saying the ump blew the call because it was a throw in the dirt? Really?

Yes, that is what I am saying and it is 100% true. If infact Rickie had thrown the ball in the air to Prince it is very, extremely unlikey that the umpire would have made the wrong call. This is because of how umpires do their jobs, what they do is watch the base and listen for the ball to hit the glove. When there is a scoop situation this is much more difficult (because the ball is not as loud and there are 2 sounds) and pretty much is the only time that major league umpires get calls wrong at first base (even the 1985 World Series blown call came from a soft flip from Jack Clark to the pitcher so the ball was not that loud). Every baseball game there are lots of plays at first where us the fan can only judge based on seeing the runner and the ball, and the delay causes us to be wrong a lot and yell at the TV and only after the replay realize we are wrong. When the ball hits the first basemen's glove hard the umpires are right 999/1000 times.

[apereira2222]

topper09er wrote:Yes, that is what I am saying and it is 100% true. If infact Rickie had thrown the ball in the air to Prince it is very, extremely unlikey that the umpire would have made the wrong call. This is because of how umpires do their jobs, what they do is watch the base and listen for the ball to hit the glove. When there is a scoop situation this is much more difficult (because the ball is not as loud and there are 2 sounds) and pretty much is the only time that major league umpires get calls wrong at first base (even the 1985 World Series blown call came from a soft flip from Jack Clark to the pitcher so the ball was not that loud). Every baseball game there are lots of plays at first where us the fan can only judge based on seeing the runner and the ball, and the delay causes us to be wrong a lot and yell at the TV and only after the replay realize we are wrong. When the ball hits the first basemen's glove hard the umpires are right 999/1000 times.

I was about to post the exact same thing. I've been umpiring for years and the call at first base is probably the easiest to make because you just wait for the pop of the glove or the sound of the runner hitting first base, whichever comes first. There is no doubt that in the scoop situation it is a more difficult call.

[theavrock]

Its still a call umpires make every day, multiple times and a call that there is no excuse for blowing. Weeks made the play. He had Soriano, a fast baserunner, busting it down the line and had to get off a quick throw. It got there ahead of the runner and Prince made what for most major league 1B is a routine scoop. Saying he needs to change his throwing motion when most of the times this season he has made the play is really nitpicking. If the ump had made the right call this point would be moot.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

I love Rickie, but he had a hand in that blown call. The ump did miss it, but if that throw is a strike to Fielder the ump likely calls him out. It would have been an easier call. Still should have been an out, but a good throw gets that call.

 

As an aside...Fielder has looked pretty solid over at first so far this year.

 

I'm not sure about the side arm comment. Many 2B's make that side arm throw across the body, partially to keep the sliding runner down. Gantner was awesome at that. I think the correct point you made was about throwing off the back foot...that seems to be an issue for him. It looks like he's flicking or aiming the ball rather than "throwing through the target". Maybe he needs a dartball lesson from Augie (for those of you that caught that discussion on Sunday).

[RoseBowlMtg]

I heard a great HS coach say watch JJ and Counsell when the ball gets thrown around the horn or infield practice: They are fundamentally perfect every time while Rickie will throw different ways. It's an interesting take while you're at the game but then again it would help to be bailed out by a taller first baseman sometimes.

[rickh150]

Weeks has done well this year at the plate. That is keeping him in the line-up, not his glove, and definitely not his ability to turn two. I'm a little shocked at some of the comments. I gave Weeks praise and pointed out an obvious concern, yet some want me to say that all is well with Rickie and nothing in his game should change.

Also, Gantner didn't sling it over. He threw it over with his normal technique. Slinging refers to the way the ball is released upward from his hand, actually lower than a side-arm. Weeks does this consistently flat-footed and stiff-legged. Big concern.

[cwolf2012]

What I'm finding interesting is how everyone is now praising Rickie for turning it around at the plate, when his stats suggest that he's LESS productive than his career averages thus far. He's only getting on base at a .321 clip right now, and that's not good. Yes, he's slugging better (ISO of .190), but it's not enough to offset the 30-40 points of OBP he's missing.

 

His defense, on the other hand, has been significantly better thus far this season and he's still getting a lot of flak for it. He's already been worth 1.3 runs with his defense. Obviously I don't think he'll end up with an UZR of 27, but it still shows that he's getting a lot better on the defensive side of the game.

[GormanHarvey]

For me I am just looking at how he looks by watching him rather than basing it off of his numbers so far. As Ryan Braun showed last night, one good game at this early juncture can take you from looking bad to looking pretty darn good numbers wise. I think Rickie's approach at the plate has been better and I think he has looked more under control and smooth in the field and if these trends continue I think it will pay dividends for him in the long run numbers wise

[logan82]

What I'm finding interesting is how everyone is now praising Rickie for turning it around at the plate, when his stats suggest that he's LESS productive than his career averages thus far.

 

It is interesting, but not very surprising. I have defended Weeks offense in the past, but see this year as a down year on offense for him so far. It is still way to early to make any real judgment though.

[Gobias Industries]

Sub .300 OBP. Ugh. He's still hitting the ball very hard rather routinely, but he needs to take his walks if he's gonna continue to strikeout at such a high clip. If we don't see a couple of walks in the next four days, I'll be in panic mode.

 

I too find it hilarious that the clowns on the JSOnline Blog think he's finally putting it together, like he's never had an above average offensive season for a 2B. No doubt they'd rather take a .300/.300 line from Ricke than .240/.380.

[DougJones43]

Weeks throw to first on the attempted DP in the ninth seems to be exactly what the original poster's concern is all about. If he steps into that and makes a strong throw, that'a a DP. Instead he does that sidearm flip, the ball travels without much zip, and the runner barely beats the throw. That could have turned into a big deal, as the Phils almost tied the game.

 

I guess the lollipop throws are better than spiking it in the dirt, which he did too often last year.

[DHonks]

What really hurts him is that while he's possibly got the shortest 1st baseman to dig his throws, he's also got the 1st baseman that has the worst ability at digging balls. I think it's hilarious (in a sad kind of way) when I see 1st basemen 6'2"-6'8" and they are getting their knees dirty waiting for throws, yet Prince bends all at the waist

[FVBrewerFan]

Weeks weakness---The side-arm sling

 

Yes, that's a weakness...along with his low OBP.

[mnevis]

It seems we will never be satisfied with whatever Rickie does on the field. Nobody is perfect. Heck, it is a long season. He has been working with Sveum and Randolph for a little over three months. Let's see where he is at the break, at least. I am very pleased with the strides he's made as a hitter and a fielder. He is more aggressive at the plate and his OBP has suffered, but I believe he will revert to past OBP performances. His fielding will never be his "calling card", but it is passable.

[Invader3K]

I don't have a beef with Weeks right now. His defense has seemed to improve to the point where it at least partially makes up for his offensive detriments. Hopefully he can raise that OBP back up a bit as the season wears on. It was nice to see him homer yesterday, too.

[jhart05]

Does the ball still get over to Prince at first? Yes. Well, then I don't care if he was throwing it over there like a woman's softball pitcher.

 

One thing it does do, is that runner coming from first is going to get out of the way, because he doesn't want to take a ball to the chops. So hopefully that means less guys trying to take him out on the turn, and less chance of injury for Rickie.

 

I'm more concerned that he isn't walking this year. If could bring that up, to what it was last year, all the "Weeks Sucks" people could go away.

[sveumrules]

Weeks posted a combined UZR score of -22.5 through 2006 (which covers

1,652.3 innings), yet has a 0.5 UZR since (in 2,343.7 innings).

 

Just saw that little tidbit over at fangraphs and thought it was interesting with all the talk of weeks being a negative defender. This was the most recent Weeks defense thread I could find so I figured I'd just drop it in here instead of starting a whole new thread.

[JohnBriggs12]

Seems to me Gantner used the side arm throw too though I could be wrong. Regardless there's been lots of 2b that throw that way so I don't think you can pinpoint it as the type of throw he's making being the problem. Sometimes you can't just stand in there and deliver over the top without exposing yourself to hits.

 

The fact that it seems to happen in key situations, makes me think it has more to do with the throat area than the arm motion.