It's probably about time for a Nelson Cruz thread

[endaround]

Eveland isn't that good after injury. I think people forget how good Eveland was. He was traded because the coaching staff in Milwaukee couldn't stand him.

[RightFieldCoder]

Wow, what an overly negative and worthless post. There's so many things wrong with what you said, I'm not even going to bother.

Let me try.

 

Inman, Garrison, Thatcher for Linebrink - bad trade (will get worse as time goes on)

Everyone knew the Brewers weakness was RP getting to the closer. Melvin went out and got one of the better set up men. Linebrink just picked a really bad time to loose it. Melvin has always said you have to overpay to get P in July. A risky move, but one that was needed to attempt to make the playoffs that year.

LaPorta and Brantley for CC. - He struck this deal pre-maturely because so many loser brewer fans would do anything to make the post season. Hope you enjoyed those two games because that's all you're going to see for a while. If Melvin knew what he was doing, he would trade a lot of these position players while their value is high before their big pay day.

This deal is not over yet. We will get two draft picks in June. Maybe we use these draft picks to get the pitching you say we should be stocking? And where was LaPorta going to play? We could trade Prince now (because he's so overpriced) for pitching. But what would happen if LaPorta follows Weeks in not putting up mega numbers for years, while we watch Prince come close to, or win, an MVP award?

Lee and Cruz for Cordero. That is a joke. What does this organization have left today from that trade?

Lee was walking at the end of the year. So we traded Cruz for one year of Cordero, and came within $1M of getting him for another 4. Like someone said, Cordero was a key part in an almost playoff run. Cruz would be a backup OF with us. I have to believe he would be behind Hart and Braun. So Cruz would have taken Brad Nelson's place on the bench, adding another R to our team.

Balfour for McClung - Balfour has put up better numbers and was never given the opportunity here.

I consider it a win for both sides. Both just needed a change of scenery.

Doug Davis for Vargas - Nice

I agree that this was a bad trade. In hindsight. I was excited to get a catcher. Carne Estrada exploded on us. But this deal did not cripple a franchise.

On the plus side, this will be Melvins last year. Too bad Jack Z won't be available.

I'm pretty sure DM got an extention to 2012 before he went out to get a manager.

[Ennder]

Inman, Garrison, Thatcher for Linebrink - bad trade (will get worse as time goes on)

 

Actually this will get better as time goes on because the draft picks we got for losing Linebrink will likely replace these guys who are all marginal players in the first place.

 

LaPorta and Brantley for CC. - He struck this deal pre-maturely because so many loser brewer fans would do anything to make the post season

 

The team made the post season, hard for me to fault this deal at all. Both of these players were blocked for at least the next season and I think Cain will be better than Brantley so they would have blocked again next year.

 

Lee and Cruz for Cordero. That is a joke. What does this organization have left today from that trade?

 

The draft pick compensation from Cordero leaving the team. The risk with this trade was always that Cruz would figure it out, 3 years later he finally did.

 

Balfour for McClung - Balfour has put up better numbers and was never given the opportunity here.

 

We needed a guy that could step in and give depth should a starter go down, I'm not a believer that Balfour can keep up what he did last year either so lets give this one some time before judging it.

 

Doug Davis for Vargas - Nice

 

Doug Davis is nothing special and the team wasn't going to re-sign Davis so it was a 1 year deal. Eveland was part of this deal and he hasn't been a very good pitcher since other than a luck based solid ERA for part of last season. Estrada was actually putting up good numbers before his injury but that is always the big issue with offense first catchers.

 

 

Out of this whole list of complaints not a single player you listed would have significantly helped the Brewers in the past 3 years. We still have an above average farm system with a lot of good young talent on the major league team. Find it hard to really complain about his overall body of work even if I haven't liked every move he's made. His biggest flop was that 4th year on Suppan(he got too much money as well but a lot of crappy innings eaters got the same type of deals so hard to blame him, Washburn, Marquis etc).

[jjfanec]

Garrison and Inman have done nothing since being traded to make us think that trade was not at least a wash for us. I am not sure who we got with the Linebrink picks but it was either Ordorizzi or Fredrickson and Lintz or Dykstra right? Seems like good replacement of the other guys.

 

For a 1/2 a year of Lee we solidified our closer spot of a while and got draft picks who turned out to be the other two of the four mentioned above. Good trade again. It was the Nelson Cruz part that is a bummer now but really he would not play over Hart or Braun, so all we would have done is traded him for more value.

 

CC was an amazing trade. The excitement, the post-season, etc were all things needed for this team. Brantley was an okay guy to see go since he wont probably stick at CF and he does not hit enough for a corner guy. LaPorta would have been great to have replace Prince but someone had to go. Bryson was sad to see go as well but he went down with an arm injury. Add on that two high draft picks that trade will turn out well.

 

Wasn't Balfour out of options while McClung still had one at the time of the trade. Balfour was struggling in the bullpen for the Brewers on a team that was in the playoff hunt at the time. He was not going to be able to stay in the bullpen but the Brewers could not send him back down without him getting claimed by a team who could afford to stash him in the their bullpen. McClung was able to spend some time in the minors and that is the reason he was traded for and the reason his still with the Brewers today.

 

The Davis deal was not good. That is the only one I agree with.

[TheCrew07]

Eveland isn't that good after injury. I think people forget how good Eveland was. He was traded because the coaching staff in Milwaukee couldn't stand him.

You've posted this multiple times, I don't remember that ever being in print, nor I remember his family members posting about it in either forum. I recall something about him continually showing up overweight and that it was generating concern for the organization but I don't recall anything about the coaching staff "hating him".

 

As good as he was in the minors, he didn't pitch very well for the big league club.

 

The Chart displays perfectly in preview not when I post it, stats are here.

 

AZ moved him as well, he's on his 3rd organization, did they hate him as well?

 

edit. trying to get the stats to show properly

[endaround]

Haudricort and Olsen both have implied on the radio that Eveland was viewed as a punk by the clubhouse.

[Invader3K]

Yeah, so why would they possibly trade him when surrounded by young impressionable teammates then?

 

(that should be in blue)

 

Let's get real...all of the guys traded have been expendable to the organization. The CC trade was huge. Anyone who disputes doing that trade at this point is just being ridiculous. I know some people have the mentality that we should hold onto all of our young prospects no matter what...but that's a recipe for mediocrity, generally. Sometimes you have to take a chance at being great. Melvin did that, and it paid off with the first playoff berth in 26 years. So what if we only won one playoff game. If we hadn't made the playoffs, the same people in the DonMoney4Mgr mold would be whining about "27 futile years." I don't care about Nashville and Huntsville making the playoffs, I care about Milwaukee.

[TheCrew07]

That may be true as I don't get anywhere near the same local radio coverage as the Milwaukee fans do, but the organization promoted him straight out of AA then gave him a second look the following year out of AAA and he actually pitched worse. The clubhouse got on Gamel this spring training as well but I haven't seen anyone draw the conclusion that the coaches hate him.

 

I was as excited about Little Ben and Evenland as much as anyone but I don't think either got a raw deal from the organization. despite what BH's crazy father might have to say about it. Is his farewell post immortalized in Woah Solvvvd?

 

Melvin had to give some value to get some value it's unfortunate how badly that particular deal worked out for the crew not even 2 years after the fact. He thought he was getting back 3 MLB players for Davis and 2 prospects, definitely a stinker.

 

edit. I guess I'm ridiculous then because I didn't care at all about the playoff appearance and would have rather picked up a long term solution for the package of prospects that CLE got for CC

[Ennder]

You just have to keep in mind that Melvin isn't just building the major league team, he is building the fanbase as well. A lot of decisions have been about getting the organization turned around and showing results to the fans to get them back in the park. While you might not care about the playoff appearance the average fan and especially the casual fan who they are trying to get to come to the games more do care about it.

[endaround]

Eveland didn't pitch worse, he had more Ks than innings pitched. He was a 22 year old pitching in the majors with all of 30 innings previously. He's the kind of pitcher most on here who have loved to get.

 

Eveland had a low to mid 90s fastball, he wasn't Henderson. I'm not saying Eveland got a raw deal, all I'm saying is that was that he wasn't traded due to 60 innings in MLB before age 23.

[Thurston Fluff]

He struck this deal pre-maturely because so many loser brewer fans would do anything to make the post season. Hope you enjoyed those two games because that's all you're going to see for a while.

 

Actually I did. I also enjoyed the drive to the playoffs and the excitement of watching CC pitch for half a season. I think more than I would LaPorta hitting homers on a losing team or in AAA.

What ever good or bad trades Melvin made he managed to get the Brewers to a place they rarely ever have been. Considering how good this every day lineup is now and the depth of the farm I suspect I will enjoy watching them make another run in the very near future as well.

 

If Melvin knew what he was doing, he would trade a lot of these position players while their value is high before their big pay day. And build up pitching depth in the system. (see Florida Marlins.)

 

Maybe we should wait to see if that strategy pays off for them this year before we decide it's the best route. So far what we have to go off of is an 84 win season past year and a hot start this year. The Brewers got off to a fast start two years ago and that got them to the same 84 wins the Marlins had last year.

 

He struck this deal pre-maturely because so many loser brewer fans would do anything to make the post season.

 

Actually according to him he struck it when he did so he would get a few more starts out of him. Considering how things turned out it was a strategy that worked out quite well. But if he did do it for us loser Brewer fans we thank him. It's good to know the GM will do anything he can so us losers can enjoy a playoff run. Somehow I think anyone who posts on a brewer fan board might be in that loser fan category so described. Obviously someone has a low opinion of themselves. You shouldn't. The rest of us losers think better of you simply because you are a fan. Enough to over look an occasional vent.http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[TheCrew07]

You just have to keep in mind that Melvin isn't just building the major league team, he is building the fanbase as well. A lot of decisions have been about getting the organization turned around and showing results to the fans to get them back in the park. While you might not care about the playoff appearance the average fan and especially the casual fan who they are trying to get to come to the games more do care about it.

Absolutely, which is why I've repeatedly gone out of my way to point out that I understand that point of view and have no problem with the opinion. I do however have a problem with people who refuse to even consider the other side. If Yo gets hurt does Melvin even make a move for Sabathia? I don't believe so and believe he would have tried to make a deal for a more long term solution this off season. Can he move more prospects this season with holes looming on the horizon at C and CF in '10, SS and 3B in '11, and 2B and 1B in '12? I've been consistent in that I thought the team had 1, maybe 2 deals, if the players/prospects worked out to go after front of the rotation pitching. He made the 1 big deal, nothing much is left. If Gamel sticks at 3B then maybe Green and 1 of Salome/Lucroy become expendable, but those situations have yet to shake themselves out, there's no deal that's going to be made this year with those 3 players unless Gamel and Salome make a huge leap defensively before July... and it's been quite the opposite thus far.

 

I was in the vast minority of posters here that didn't want to target Sabathia because I knew what it meant down the road. Now fans are overreacting about the rotation and why Melvin didn't do more to address the front of the rotation... there is no such thing as having it both ways as a Brewer fan. He burned up depth to acquire Sabathia, the system didn't produce enough pitching under Z, how is he realistically going to acquire meaningful talent for the rotation? Even if Hardy or Fielder get moved for pitching now it will likely be for prospects as most of the pitchers that we could have targeted recently signed long term deals with their clubs or got hurt. It appears that the window of opportunity to acquire MLB ready pitching has passed us bye.

[joepepsi]

The Davis trade only looks bad in retrospect. He'd just come off a season where his ERA jumped up by more than a run, 3.84 in 2005 to 4.91 in 06. In '04 it was 3.39. So over the course of 3 seasons his ERA had jumped 1.5 runs.. His walks increase each season too, from 79 to 93 to 102. That's scary for a soft tosser who has to hit his spots to be effective. His K rate decreased and hit his rate increased from '05 to '06.

 

He had all the signs of a pitcher who was about to drop off the table. Plus he was going to be arbitration eligible. So, here was a guy who was about double his salary while at the same time he looked ready to fall off a cliff. Doug Davis in 2006 looked like Jeff Suppan in 2008. Lots of folks are willing to trade Suppan right now for a warm 6 pack Meister Brau.

 

Trading Davis in 2006 looked like the right thing to do. In exchange they got a hard throwing useful reliever in Aquino, a much needed starting catcher who'd posted a .772 OPS in 2008, and Vargas, who was 2 years younger than Davis and had a similar season in 2006.

 

Eveland looked like a fat, lazy, failing prospect, while Krynzel was a failed prospect. So far Eveland has turned in one good half season, benefitting tremendously from apitcher friendly home park.

 

The trade didn't turn out great for the Brewers, but that's not Melvin's fault. It looked good at the time and it was the right thing to do. Even now, looking at the numbers it doesn't look as lopsided as you might think.

[endaround]

No the trade looked bad at the time. The Brewers gave up the most talented player in Davis and the player with the most upside in Eveland. It was a bad decision focused on the hope the Estrada wasn't as bad as he seemed and wasn't as big of an ass everyone said he was.

[JoeHova]

The problem isn't that Melvin makes bad trades per se, it's that he hasn't made many moves that have really panned out. All of the good players on the team except for Cameron and CV were draftees. CV was the only actually good player brought in in a trade and Cameron was the only one brought in as a free agent. Melvin hasn't hit on any trade throw-ins or minimum signings recently and even when he did, those guys flamed out after a year (Turnbow, Kolb, Podsednik, Clark, etc.). The Brewers haven't acquired a long-term piece of the team by trade or free agency, except for Villanueva, who was acquired as a Rookie leaguer 6 years ago. That is my issue with Melvin. I know that it is hard to acquire good players through trades, but Melvin too often seems to not even make the effort, preferring to get guys like Mench and Gross and Vargas and various other trash rather than take a shot with a prospect.

 

Overall, I would say that Melvin is an OK GM, but not a top echelon one. No GM is perfect. However, I think pretty much all of Melvin's moves have been much ado about nothing. They've just been random cycling of random players through the roster. Sure, the Lee/Podsednik deal was great but that was a salary dump by Chicago and Melvin wasn't even able to parlay a guy who got a $100 million contract (which shows he was in major demand) into one player who lasted more than a year and a half with the team.

[joepepsi]

CV was the only actually good player brought in in a trade

Dave Bush was acquired by trade. So was Overbay. So was Capuano. They have been good players. Zach Jackson was a 1st round draft pick. So was Gross.

Melvin wasn't even able to parlay a guy who got a $100 million contract (which shows he was in major demand) into one player who lasted more than a year and a half with the team.

Cordero only stayed a year and half because he too was in major demand. So, both players sorta contradict your position that Doug never acquires good players in a trade.

 

It's a legitimate argument that Lee could have been traded for higher ceiling prospects instead of role players or lower ceiling but major league ready talent. But the Brewers are trying to win now, with the core of good young talent on the 25 man roster. It makes sense Doug is using any trades to mainly fill holes on the existing team. If the team were two years from seriously competing I'd be on board with dumping players for high ceiling AA prospects. But they're seriously competing, so I think he's done the right thing more often than not.

[Bruce Ciskie]

Sure, the Lee/Podsednik deal was great but that was a salary dump by Chicago and Melvin wasn't even able to parlay a guy who got a $100 million contract (which shows he was in major demand) into one player who lasted more than a year and a half with the team.

 

IMHO, it's patently unfair to dump on a great deal the Brewers were able to make as a "salary dump", while ignoring the facts behind the Lee deal.

 

At the time, the Brewers were trying to win. They had no chance of re-signing El Caballo, and they knew it. Instead of running the risk of not making the playoffs and also losing Lee for nothing but draft picks, Melvin made a move for a guy who would be around for at least one full season, could help the Brewers make a legitimate run at the playoffs, and then may be signable.

 

All those things happened. Meanwhile, Carlos Lee hasn't been in the playoffs once since he was with the White Sox.

[Invader3K]

Yeah...it's not like we would have made the playoffs keeping Lee anyway (more than likely).

[monty57]

I was in the vast minority of posters here that didn't want to target Sabathia because I knew what it meant down the road. Now fans are overreacting about the rotation and why Melvin didn't do more to address the front of the rotation... there is no such thing as having it both ways as a Brewer fan. He burned up depth to acquire Sabathia, the system didn't produce enough pitching under Z, how is he realistically going to acquire meaningful talent for the rotation? Even if Hardy or Fielder get moved for pitching now it will likely be for prospects as most of the pitchers that we could have targeted recently signed long term deals with their clubs or got hurt. It appears that the window of opportunity to acquire MLB ready pitching has passed us bye.

 

 

I was torn last season on whether we should go after CC, and after seeing what the Cubs gave up for two years of Harden, I think we probably gave up too much for CC. However, it's pretty obvious that without him, we wouldn't have been in the playoffs, and probably wouldn't have even come close, so I'm not going to complain about making the trade.

 

I'd say that while we shot a lot of our bullets, and may not be able to make a huge move this year, we still have enough talent to pick up a good role player if the need arises. As far as the rotation, Melvin picked up the one starter he needed this year in Looper, and added depth at AAA. All of this year's rotation is still under contract for next season. We'll likely lock Yo and possibly Parra up long term, and will possibly pick up a young starting pitcher this offseason with a trade of someone like JJ or Hart. After that, we seem to have some good young arms in the low minors who should fill up our rotation for years to come, starting with Jeffress, who could be in the rotation next season.

 

All in all, I think management (Melvin can't get all the credit) has set us up to be a good team now and for the foreseeable future, as most of our position players have ready-made replacements in the minors, and we hopefully have some decent pitchers coming up. We should also be able to trade some of our vets to fill in holes in the MLB roster and replenish the minors. Occasionally, we'll see someone we traded away play well... that's part of the game and I actually like seeing players like Cruz, Davis, Eveland and hopefully LaPorta play well. The bottom line is that I'm happy we finally have a good major league team, and likely will for a long time.

[logan82]

Melvin wasn't even able to parlay a guy who got a $100 million contract (which shows he was in major demand) into one player who lasted more than a year and a half with the team.

 

All a contract that big proves is that one team way overvalued Lee. Lee was a rental when we traded him.

[JoeHova]

Melvin wasn't even able to parlay a guy who got a $100 million contract (which shows he was in major demand) into one player who lasted more than a year and a half with the team.

 

All a contract that big proves is that one team way overvalued Lee. Lee was a rental when we traded him.

 

Yes. As was Sabathia, as were dozens of other guys who brought back useful long-term pieces. I'm not dissing Melvin, I just think his failure to target potential long-term players is kind of unfortunate, especially for a team with as many payroll constraints as the Brewers.

[PeaveyFury]

I just think his failure to target potential long-term players is kind of unfortunate, especially for a team with as many payroll constraints as the Brewers.

 

Potential long-term players usually cost more than the Brewers can afford to give in talent....

[LouisEly]

If Yo gets hurt does Melvin even make a move for Sabathia? I don't believe so and believe he would have tried to make a deal for a more long term solution this off season. Can he move more prospects this season with holes looming on the horizon at C and CF in '10, SS and 3B in '11, and 2B and 1B in '12?

 

Either I'm confused, or I think you meant to say "If Yo doesn't get hurt does Melvin even make a move for Sabathia?" Your hypothetical point is valid, but he did get hurt. If "ifs" and "buts" were candies and nuts it'd be Christmas the whole year 'round. It was either make a major move or another season of futility. Melvin's job is to deal with reality, not hypotheticals, and he did very well dealing with that reality salvaging a season and getting to the playoffs. With the downturn in the economy, how many tickets would have been purchased for this year if they had not made the playoffs last year? They would be hurting financially a lot more had he not made that move, and I'm sure Mark A. is very appreciative of that. Not sure why you think there is a hole at C in '10 (Salome?), SS and 3B in '11 (Escobar? Gamel? Green?).

 

Was the Davis/Eveland trade a bad one? Yes. (Let's not forget the highway robbery that was Enrique Cruz for Brian Shouse, and letting a 40-year-old LOOGY go and getting a 2nd round pick in return. Or CV for Wayne Franklin.) Was letting Cordero and Lee go the right thing to do? Depends on how Odorizzi, Frederickson, Lintz, and Dykstra develop, but you can't say he isn't making moves to replenish the pitching in the organization given those picks. (And have Cincinnati or Houston been to the playoffs since? No. The Brewers had more wins each of the last two seasons than both of those teams.) Was trading Nelson Cruz a bad move? Debatable; yes he is finally developing, and yes Mench and Nix didn't pan out, but like others said Cruz would be sitting on the bench because he wouldn't be starting over Braun and Hart. The only reason people know what Cruz is capable of is because he is getting ABs; that wouldn't be happening in MIL so it is perhaps a moot point. No one would know his value because he wouldn't be getting those ABs.

 

I look at the entire body of work. When Melvin took over the Brewers had garbage at the major league level AND the minor leagues. (Look at who the top prospects were when Melvin took over. When Allen Levrault is your best pitching prospect you have garbage in the minor leagues.) Look at them now. Is he perfect? No. No GM is. But if you make more good moves than bad ones you will be doing very well. And that IMO he has.

[TheCrew07]

Are you suggesting that an Ervin Santana type would have cost more more than what we paid for Sabathia? I highly doubt that's true.

 

Brantley never got much love around here but he's exactly what people have been talking about acquiring... he's a LH OBP machine with developing power. He may never hit 10 HRs in a season, but he'll bat .300ish and carry a .360 OBP. He's started off slow after raking in ST but he'll get there eventually, I have confidence he can keep his SLG 40ish points higher than his OBP.

 

LaPorta had a bad slump the end of last year and all of sudden people started talking like he's over rated. He absolutely raked all spring and currently is sporting this line in the IL. He's not hitting like Gamel, but how many guys have ever SLG nearly 1.000 over a 2 week span in any league?

 

I'm biased when it comes to Bryson, I really like him as a pitcher and it's just plain bad luck for Cleveland that he got injured. He had an excellent arm, 2 plus pitches, he's a solid pitching prospect.

 

Obviously Zach Jack was a throw in for some depth.

 

A top prospect in all of baseball, a solid top of the order hitter, and young pitcher with a live arm and stuff... without the recent rash of injuries for teams like Toronto that package could have easily pulled a Marcum type. I still think we matched up best with TB coming into this off season if the Sabathia deal doesn't eat up the depth. They were going to need an impact bat and had a surplus of excellent pitching. Maybe they sign a FA anyway but I would have liked our chances early as the 2 organizations have a history of dealings with each other.

[DonMoney4Mgr]

Invader3K[/b]]

Wow, what an overly negative and worthless post. There's so many things wrong with what you said, I'm not even going to bother.

I apologize for the slightly irrational rant. However, as a long time Brewer fan I am not pleased with the state of team right now. JoeHova summed it up pretty well when he stated "none of his deals have really panned out that well". I was really excited a few years ago with talent in our system. Melvin had the ammunition to acquire some pitching prospects and didn't get it done.

 

Now, our payroll is nearly maxed out and we lack pitching. What arms do you see coming up from our system this year or next? (I like Dillard)

Signing free agent pitching doesn't fit the small market model. The risk is way too high and you end up overpaying for 500 pitchers.

 

Mark A. says 2.8M in attendance is our break even point. What if we are 10 games below 500 at the all star break? Even with 2M tickets sold we may have trouble reaching that number. What options will Melvin have? He won't be able to dump most of the high salaries we have. Soup, Riske, Hall, Cameron, Kendall. Those 5 alone account for more than the entire Marlin roster. I may be getting ahead of myself a tad, but there is some cause for concern.