The Mat Gamel watch

[strawbossisevil]

So pointing to his streak of 10 straight games without an error as just a pause between horrible streaks is fair to Gamel? Giving Gamel no credit whatsoever for the good he´s done in the last two weeks? Just waiving it off with his hand as a momentary break from Gamel´s horrible abilities at playing 3b? How is any of that fair to Gamel, who has done very very well these past two weeks defensively. Should he get no credit for doing so and just be dismissed?

 

The point is, after his first dozen games or so, people were calling him out for having an error every other game. Now that he has put 10 games without an error together, what do you hear? Crickets. No one commenting that it is encouraging that he has done so well the past few weeks. The people who were calling him out earlier have either gone silent or are still chirping on about the first couple weeks that they act like these past two weeks never even happened.

 

I guarantee you though, the next error that he makes and the complaining from such posters (like Crew07) will continue just like before. I´m beginning to think that Crew07 wants Gamel to fail at 3b because he takes more pleasure in being "right" than what is best for the Brewers.

[Tedaldtada]

Now that he has put 10 games without an error together, what do you hear? Crickets. No one commenting that it is encouraging that he has done so well the past few weeks.

I thought I mentioned his improvment a few days ago, but I know what you mean.

 

Anyways, Gamel may or may not be streaky, but going 10 games w/o an error is a pleasant surprise from him. With his bat, all he has to do is take baby steps on D and DM, KM, and Gord will move him along.

[TheCrew07]

Oh, I see how it is. Just disregard statistical improvement because it doesn´t fit with your preconceived notions. It couldn´t possibly be that Gamel has settled down and improved defensively after an initial bad start.

 

You couldn´t possibly admit that Gamel has played very well defensively as of late, you have to cut him down. What a ridiculous post.

Huh, I've said many times he's streaky, he's clean for 2-3 weeks then the flood gates open again. When did I become a Gamel hater?

 

He just needs to find some consistency.

 

edit. You're subsequent post made even less sense... I've defended Mat tirelessly... I have no idea where you are coming from.

[uwisfan]

yeah i've been a big proponent of Gamel sticking at 3B, but his errors are streaky. He would go 3 weeks at a time last year with no errors, followed by a couple weeks with tons of errors. 10 games won't convince me much.

[filthyfrog]

I think the point here is that Gamel has to earn the benefit of the doubt. He has a track record of a poor defensive third baseman, so while 10 games without an error is encouraging, he's going to have to do more than that to prove that he's reliable. If he can sustain that success for half a season, then we might be able to say he's truly improved.

[JohnBriggs12]

yeah i've been a big proponent of Gamel sticking at 3B, but his errors are streaky. He would go 3 weeks at a time last year with no errors, followed by a couple weeks with tons of errors. 10 games won't convince me much.

His error rate last year (32 in 132 games) and fielding pct (.918) were better than any extended stretch for Braun at 3B in the minors or majors (Braun's minor league FP was .899), and so significantly better than his 2007, that I think there is every reason to be optimistic. I think it's natural that he would put some extra pressure on himself out of the gate and he's now steadier.

[endaround]

Comparing him to the worst 3B ever in the major leagues isn't really that meaningful

[kramnoj]

Comparing him to the worst 3B ever in the major leagues isn't really that meaningful

 

I know you're fond of these hyperbolic statements, but what measure are you using to make this statement?

[TooLiveBrew]

There really isn't anything to suggest that Braun wasn't that bad in 2007. He was really, really awful. He didn't get to a lot of balls, and he struggled at turning those he did get to into outs. You basically can't do worse than that.

 

Gamel sounds like he has a legit shot to be a solid defender at 3B. Braun just never really did.

[kramnoj]

There really isn't anything to suggest that Braun wasn't that bad in 2007.

 

Endaround is stating something as if it is a fact. That Braun was the worst 3B ever in the major leagues. Nobody is arguing that he wasn't really bad in 2007. Those are two different things. I had looked at this before, when ESPN used to have ZR data for previous years, and I found one player who had a ZR inferior to Braun's 2007. I believe it was a Cleveland 3B, maybe Travis Fryman.

[Hate those Rodents]

That's a lot of double negatives guys. Hard for me to understand the points, respectfully.

[TooLiveBrew]

I had looked at this before, when ESPN used to have ZR data for previous years, and I found one player who had a ZR inferior to Braun's 2007

 

Unless ZR has been revised (to the best of my knowledge it hasn't), it's not a particularly good metric for defense. Honestly there was a lot of discussion & analysis of Braun during the '07 season at 3B, and I can't remember anything that didn't show him as having been historically bad.

 

My main point is that if Braun's not the absolute worst 3B to ever carry a glove out there at the MLB level, he's basically just in a multi-player tie for 'worst fielding 3B ever'

[JJHardy7]

My main point is that if Braun's not the absolute worst 3B to ever carry a glove out there at the MLB level, he's basically just in a multi-player tie for 'worst fielding 3B ever'

 

I still don't think that's a fair statement. Worst defensive 3B for 4/5 of a season or something like that might be more accurate. I would imagine the worst fielding 3B would at least be in the bigs for a few seasons before that statement would be made.

 

Gamel also has played 3B a few more years than Braun did. Braun was a converted 3B.

[endaround]

He's among the worse to play there full time for any length of time. There was something by MGL I think that had him with worst season since like 1918. He was awful. If he wasn't the worst ever he's among the worst in anyone's living memory. I'm not really exaggerating about this.

[kramnoj]

I'm not really exaggerating about this.

 

Saying that he is the worst ever is either true, or it's not. If you can't back it up as a fact, than you are exaggerating. He clearly had one of the worst seasons anyone has had. But that's not what you first wrote.

[TooLiveBrew]

Oh come on... is it really worth dragging down into semantics? The point is that he was terrible... historically bad, and that comparing even Gamel to him isn't very useful.

 

Honestly, 'worst since 1918' isn't good enough to just let it go?

[kramnoj]

Oh come on... is it really worth dragging down into semantics?

 

It's not semantics. It's either true or it isn't.

 

Honestly, 'worst since 1918' isn't good enough to just let it go?

 

It's not, because we don't have play by play data going back to 1918. Since you don't trust ZR, which is based on PBP data, why should we trust anything based on less data?

 

The point is that he was terrible... historically bad, and that comparing even Gamel to him isn't very useful.

 

Why would that be true? We don't know how Gamel will be as a major league 3B. We know that he had 53 errors in in 115 games one season and that Braun had 31 errors in 115 games one season. We know that in the season that each of them had their highest error total that Gamel made 2.23 plays/per game and than Braun made 2.19 plays/per game. How do we have enough data to definitively know that Gamel shouldn't be compared to Braun?

[trwi7]

Saying that he is the worst ever is either true, or it's not. If you can't back it up as a fact, than you are exaggerating. He clearly had one of the worst seasons anyone has had. But that's not what you first wrote.

Seriously, who cares? Does it really bother you that much?

[PeaveyFury]

Lots of condescension here- tone it down, please.

 

And yes, if you're making claims, back them up with facts.

[mkm13]

To say he is the worst ever is just being negative. I am sure his defensive numbers were not helped any throwing to a short and obese 1st baseman with poor footwork and little ability to scoop a ball.

 

In general, defensive statistics are spotty at best to make such a definite claim. There are many external variables that can significantly skew statistics.

[kramnoj]

Seriously, who cares? Does it really bother you that much?

 

It's either a valid point that needs to be substantiated, or it's not true, in which case it doesn't have much value. That seems like a fairly big distinction to me.

[Mr Southpaw]

The year Braun played third base, he was Rookie of the Year. There are a bunch of players who have had poor fielding seasons, but not many of them hit like Braun. His fielding from two years ago just does not seem that important of a point, whatever side you are on. I am sure Gamel will be a better fielder and probably not as good of a hitter (I hope not).

[Invader3K]

I agree with Southpaw. I think it's reasonable to say that while Braun was pretty bad defensively, his offensive contributions at least somewhat made up for his shortcomings. I also think he could have only gotten better if he had stuck at 3B (I don't think I'm really going out on a limb there). However, moving him to LF was for the best.

[logan82]

All ZR measures is how a player did within his defensive zone or hands. It doesn't take range into account at all. It is usually accompanied by OOZ.

 

Article on Braun. Link

[mkm13]

Again, that article mentions terrible throwing accuracy. I am sure that accuracy was made to look worse throwing to a short and obese 1st baseman with poor footwork and little ability to scoop a ball.