How long of a leash would you give Suppan?

[endaround]

The point is that Suppan's ERA was deceptively low because he had given up a bunch on unearned runs early in the year. Those became earned runs in September

[CheezWizHed]

Saying he is lucky in giving up unearned runs seems backwards.... You are assuming he would have given up those runs anyway but "lucky" because someone made an error? Because normally, if the error is not made, the run wouldn't have been given up at all, right?

 

Unearned errors also make it harder for the SP because he has to pitch more to get out of an inning, thus shortening how long he can pitch that night.

[Thurston Fluff]

I don't think Suppan carries the same veteran mystic in the Macha clubhouse than he did in the Yost clubhouse.

 

The reason he was the opening day starter was because he was a veteran. One of the reasons given for the rotation set that way was it lined up the veteran right handers for the Cubs series. I know it was popular to blame Yost for everything and so far it seems many are justifying Macha's mistakes by saying at least it's not Yost. Many seem to give him a pass for an obviously poor choice for opening day and, by extension, the worst possible options to win the Cub series just because they hated the last manager. Had Ned done exactly the same things as Macha has so far he would have been hammered for them by many of the same people.

 

That said I think the fact that both starting pitchers struggled with control last night as did most of the relievers it might have been early season/cold weather issues as much as Soup just losing it forever. That he had two bad outings already makes the next one more important but not deciding. He has been hot and cold throughout his time with the Brewers and we knew coming in he would be the worst of the five starters. I think his paycheck combined with his nominal top of the rotation status make him look worse even though he is the same as he ever was. Which is an inconsistent bottom of the rotation guy who will eat up innings over the year while making every start and winning around ten games. Two poor outings to start the year isn't going to change my thinking on that.

 

Suppan was also lucjy at that point because he gave up a ton on unearned runs. He had 11 unearned runs in the first half of the season[/i]

 

How is poor defense lucky for a pitcher? I kind of think getting out of those innings without giving up the runs would have been preferable. Probably would have made some of his other stats look better as well. Things like wins and innings pitched seem to go down when the errors behind the pitcher goes up.

[CheezWizHed]

He has been hot and cold throughout his time with the Brewers...

 

He is cold Soup now... I call him Gazpacho! What we need is a good hot Beer-Cheese Soup! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[fondybrewfan]

The whole Suppan situation has been rather frustrating. What if we had an additional 12.5 million to spend the last two offseasons, think of the extensions and/or trades Melvin could have pulled off! Suppan was far from the missing link to last years playoff team and the Brewers probably would have found a way to make the playoffs anyways with a different SP in the rotation. I can't help but think that if Doug had had an additional 12.5M to spend this offseason that Peavy might be a Brewer right now. i guess there is no use dwelling on the past though.

 

I'll be honest I kind of liked the deal at the time because Suppan was a "winner" and the Crew didn't really have a whole lot of quality SP depth at that time. Now it is just an albatross contract. Yeah he has his good moments, but $12.5M pitchers need more than just good moments, they need to keep the team in the game night in and night out.

[brewman04]

I don't know if Macha will remove him after 2 bad starts but he Needs to remove him from the Top Spot in the Order with out Question.

[naivin]

What if we had an additional 12.5 million to spend the last two offseasons, think of the extensions and/or trades Melvin could have pulled off!...

 

The reason I am so glad the Yankees outbid the Brewers for Sabathia. As much as I would like to have him here, a couple years down the road, that contract would have been an absolute nightmare for the Brewers (as it will be for the Yankees, but they can handle it.).

[Big Cat Dad]

The thing I don't get is why everyone is so quick to throw him in the bullpen. I'm confident that this team is better off with him "not on it".

 

Cut him loose. I don't care if the guy is making 25 million a year.....he's not a MLB pitcher and has no business on this roster.....PERIOD.

[strawbossisevil]

I still think there is some overreacting going on based on one mediocre bad luck start and one horrible start. If at the end of May he still is struggling to find the strike zone, and is continuing to get the loss start after start, then yes, I´d expect him pulled.

 

Yesterday was awful, no doubt, but let´s not make it out to be any more than what it was, one start.

 

If we are making long term decisions already, let´s bench Hardy as well, since he´s clearly played horribly. This is why being a fan of baseball is so hard, sometimes first impressions on players aren´t always the best impressions.

 

Hopefully in a few weeks this will all be recognized as the over-reaction thread that it really is.

[Thurston Fluff]

The whole Suppan situation has been rather frustrating. What if we had an additional 12.5 million to spend the last two offseasons, think of the extensions and/or trades Melvin could have pulled off! Suppan was far from the missing link to last years playoff team and the Brewers probably would have found a way to make the playoffs anyways with a different SP in the rotation.

 

Melvin has said many times he got Soup to go every 5th day and eat up innings. The biggest reason the Brewers missed the playoffs the year before Soup came aboard was because the pitching staff had too many guys get injured. Melvin did what he should have in that situation IMO. He found a player who could be relied upon to start every 5th game and eat innings. That is exaclty what Soup has done since he's been here. That Melvin overpaid for it is a matter of how free agency works more than a poor choice on who to get. All free agents prior to 08 were overpriced. Doesn't mean that sometimes it isn't necessary.

I don't think I'm alone in thinking he was going to be way over payed by the end of his contract when he signed it. That fact doesn't mean it was a bad choice at the time. If it helped us get over the hump short term and he still had some value at the end of the contract I think mortgaging the future payroll for the present team was the right thing to do for the Brewers at that time. Not always the right thing to do but sometimes. When he signed, like trading three prospects for 1/2 a season of CC, it was the right move.

[Bruce Ciskie]

I'm going to believe in Suppan, if for no other reason than that I don't have a choice.

 

He's not going anywhere. The Brewers can't trade him, and they can't release him. He's a smart guy, so let's hope he can at least achieve mediocrity. That way he stops embarrassing himself and this team on national television.

 

Bottom line is that the pitching staff is a mess right now. Suppan is the poster boy for it, but if we don't get the offense going at 7-8 runs a game, we're not going to win a lot until some pitchers step up. I trust Gallardo to give us quality starts, and Bush and Looper are not superstars, but will work hard. Suppan is a mess, Parra has to be better, and the bullpen is atrocious.

 

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Macha will have the team playing much better in August and September than they are now. You can say "That wouldn't take much" and not be totally wrong, but the reality is that his predecessor was not good at getting good teams to play better ball down the stretch.

[topper09er]

Who cares about the stats or what he has done before, just watch him out there...he is horrible! He has zero major league caliber pitches, he is just going to be throwing BP all season. Look at that first pitch, a 87 MPH garbage pitch that started down the pipe and moved an inch in. He has NO ability to get any sort of above average major league hitter out. Every time he pitches he will allow a few runs every time through the heart of the order and "eat up" the innnings where he faces the bottom of the order, unless he walks them to get back to the top of the order for another pounding. He is falling behind almost every hitter, how bout that Koyie Hill AB last night. You have bases loaded with 1 out facing the 8th place hitting back up catcher and then the pitcher. Then who is next, Soriano who is hot and has already homered off your above average high school fastball. So what should you be thinking in this situation, obviously it is DONT WALK THIS GUY NO MATTER WHAT, just throw fastball down the middle the whol AB and then do the same thing to Dempster. When he walked Hill on 4 pitches I do not understand how Macha could have possibly left him out there. I mean that is horrible managing, I dont care if he has not had much time to learn Jeff Suppan, anyone with any baseball insticts should have realized he was done..

 

Needless to say he is not a major league caliber starter anymore and we'd be better off in the longrun with anyone else who is available.

[GormanHarvey]

The thing that stuck out to me with Suppan last night was his reaction after the first pitch he threw got deposited over the CF fence by Soriano. He hung his head and sort of shook it while he grimmaced/smiled in astonishment. After probably already having some doubts in his mind from last sept and his playoff start, I seriously think that HR on the 1st ptich broke him somewhat. I don't think a guy like Suppan suddenly forgot how to throw strikes last night. I think he trusts his stuff so little right now that he is affraid to throw anything over the plate. His velocity looked fine for him and he threw some decent pitches in the first couple innings, but when the going got a little tough I think he crumbled because of a lack of confidence right now. If you ask me, if he has an injury right now, its psychological

[topper09er]

He's not going anywhere. The Brewers can't trade him, and they can't release him.

Why???? Is there a rule that you are not allowed to release players who you have under contract? Last time I checked no, this is the kind of Ned Yost attitude that got us nowhere. The mariners released Richie when he proved to not be a major league player anymore, Detroit with Sheff (hahaha) and so on. Right now it is a serious legitimate OPTION to outright release Jeff Suppan. I do not think they should do this because teams always get banged up and there may be a point when he is the best option we have to start, but right now I do not think he is a major league caliber pitcher and he should not be on a major league roster.

[jeffy]

Melvin has said many times he got Soup to go every 5th day and eat up innings.

Okay, but he needs to at least eat a full meal of 6-7 innings every 5 days...the 4-5 inning snacks have got to end.

[adamb100]

I wouldnt releaese Jeff Suppan right now but I'd give him one more start and if things dont improve either consider moving him to the pen or DFA/send him down.

[Big Cat Dad]

topper09er[/b]]

He's not going anywhere. The Brewers can't trade him, and they can't release him.

Why???? Is there a rule that you are not allowed to release players who you have under contract? Last time I checked no, this is the kind of Ned Yost attitude that got us nowhere. The mariners released Richie when he proved to not be a major league player anymore, Detroit with Sheff (hahaha) and so on. Right now it is a serious legitimate OPTION to outright release Jeff Suppan. I do not think they should do this because teams always get banged up and there may be a point when he is the best option we have to start, but right now I do not think he is a major league caliber pitcher and he should not be on a major league roster.

My exact feelings on the matter. Putting him in the bullpen solves nothing. He will still be throwing BP fastballs when he's in the pen (or walking people).

 

He gives this team NOTHING positive right now. We can have some AAA scrub come up and pitch mop up duty...don't need soup to do that.

 

Is anyone on this site willing to have Soup pitch in any high leverage situation out of the pen....didn't think so.

[Eddiehitsthefoulpole]

Just for the point of clarification, I was never a Jeff Suppan fan before he came to Milwaukee. But I am going to come to his defense in this situation. He really struggled in September and in two starts this season. He did finish Spring training well though. Over the course of his career he has been a slow starter who has finished seasons well. The real problem with Suppan is his contract. We overpaid him. As a result we couldn't seriously negotiate for Sabathia. We also decided to put our money into Suppan instead of Sheets (Since Sheets isn't pitching we are ahead right now, I suspect that will change). Suppan is a back-end of the rotation guy. He pitches around left-handed hitters and power hitters (he tries to get them to swing at bad pitches) and hopes to get the other guys out to limit the damage. I suspect that over time this season Braden Looper and Dave Bush won't be any better than him (I don't know how to figure Bush's effectiveness because he puts up a lot of zeros and gives up a lot of big innings). I would still like to see McClung in the rotation.

[jeffy]

With a couple days off coming up, any chance Soupon gets skipped and goes to the bullpen for a bit? I think the way it works out they could go until the 25th, without a need for him to make a start.

[Fatter than Joey]

If we are making long term decisions already, let´s bench Hardy as well, since he´s clearly played horribly.

 

The problem with this reasoning is that it is nowhere near realistic -- players are not going to get 200 ABs or 10 starts to determine whether they are horrible or not.

 

If Macha needs to wait until May to get a gauge on how effective Suppan is going to be, then Macha should be fired. Macha should have the ability to tell who is struggling with the hopes of getting better and who is struggling and toast.

[strawbossisevil]

Was it last year that everyone wanted Bush DFAd because of a few bad starts to start the year? It´s a good thing the Brewers didn´t do that last season.

 

It´s interesting how the same lesson needs to be learned year after year after year by fans. I guess that comes when one´s passion often gets in the way of keeping things in perspective.

 

No one´s happy with Suppan´s first two starts, but two starts is not nearly enough to make a judgment in regards to how he´ll pitch the rest of the year.

 

It´s probably likely that Suppan has an ERA somewhere in the area of 5 (perhaps a bit lower, perhaps a bit higher) at season end. While that is not worth his salary, that still is a productive #5 pitcher. If we can get that out of him, there is no reason why we should be throwing away $12 Million this year or next.

[edod]

If he keeps struggling the way he is, I would expect Soup to man up and take a bullpen/minors assignment to work out his kinks (if that is possible). I can't see the team dousing the fan bases' enthusiasm this early in the year by allowing him to stink it up every 5th day until the weather starts selling tickets all by itself. At some point, damaged early ticket sales should become more of concern than his salary. I'd give him 5 starts before he's in the bullpen, and 5 appearances after that before he's in the minors.

 

I hope he is the last player the Brewers ever have to overpay to come to Milwaukee.

[Never Outhustled]

He has zero major league caliber pitches, he is just going to be throwing BP all season.

I agree he was horrible last night, but a BP pitcher gives up more than 2 hits. The Cubs hitters were taking ugly I think GormanHarvey has it right, his problems are psychological. He needs to get over it, and fast.

[TooLiveBrew]

The most I can see happening is an 'injury' & some DL time. Soup isn't as bad as his results have been lately. Honestly, the guy outpitches the defending CY winner on OD, then has a bad start & the Brewers are supposed to flat-out release the guy?

 

I know he's not a great pitcher, but I guess the overreaction to this shouldn't surprised me so much.

[logan82]

Two more games like this and in my opinion he should go to the pen until the next SP injury. The first game wasn't really that bad. He just got hit. Walking guys like he did on Sunday is completely inexcusable. Once more and it could just be a bad stretch. 3 in a row though is a bit to much. He is our 5th starter no matter where the manager decided to put him in the rotation. He has had bad streaks before and he will again. This one happens to stand out a little more because it is to start the season.