Escobar Willing to Switch Positions

[DHonks]

I prefer JJ moving to 3rd, but it's quite possible that in 2010 we open with Weeks in CF, Escobar at 2b, and Hardy at SS. Then after a year or two (when Hardy is a free agent), Escobar shifts back to SS much like Jose Reyes did.

[logan82]

Yount I believe was our last Gold Glover. 1982 I think.

[GormanHarvey]

Yount I believe was our last Gold Glover. 1982 I think.

Thats what I am saying...

[logan82]

I am honestly more concerned with actually winning games over people getting individual awards.

[Fatter than Joey]

I am shocked to hear him even say that. Even if it wouldn't be the smartest thing for him career-wise/business-wise, its pretty selfless of him. Kudos to Alicdes!

 

I'm not -- Escobar knows he is the SS of the future -- and if the Brewers bring him up to play 2b, it starts his clock, and gets him closer to his pay day.

 

Keep him in AAA.

[TheCrew07]

At the very least, it's never a bad thing to have to have a prospect pushing 2 MLB players. I know it's not quantifiable, but I know from experience that players tend to perform better when someone is pushing them. If Weeks or Hardy goes down with an injury Escobar is coming up, and in Weeks' case if he does no better than last year it's possible they may give Escobar a shot there as well. Throw in Gamel, Salome, and Cain... if all those guys play well there's going to plenty of competition for roster spots next season.

 

Including 2 top 30 prospects in the Sabathia deal? My goodness, I would have given up my Brewer fan status and become a full time fan of the Rays. Any GM that would give up 2 prospects of that magnitude for a rental shouldn't have a job, much less people advocating it... there's just no way we get players of similar talent back in the draft with our current draft positions. I too would love to have Brantley at the top of the order, but I like Cain's upside better and Green was hurt so if I was Cleveland I would have taken Brantley as well.

 

I'm of the opinion the team missed it's window to move Hardy, unless he's traded mid season, but I just don't see getting a MLB top of the rotation arm for 1+ years of Hardy. High ceiling prospects would be realistic at this point, but there's a short list of teams with prospect pitching to burn. Maybe I'm reading too much into Melvin's comments, but my gut feeling based on what's been reported is that the team is going to ride out both Hardy and Fielder.

 

Whomever said JJ isn't going to volunteer to take another player's job might be on to something, though it's likely both he and his agent know how valuable Hardy will be in the FA market as well.

 

As far as Weeks in CF... the team already missed it's window on that move as well, unless Cain totally tanks this year, it looks like the stars have aligned for him to be the CF in 2010. Weeks doesn't get to hardly any line drives and doesn't seem to be be all that instinctive of a baseball player, my gut feeling is that he'd do no better than Hall did out there, without the benefit of having time to grow into the position.

[GormanHarvey]

I am honestly more concerned with actually winning games over people getting individual awards.

That goes without saying. Apparently no matter how I try to express my point you are going to take it apart into tiny pieces. I can't remember the last time the Brewers were considered a strong or above average defensive team and everything on defense starts up the middle so I am just intrigued with a player at the SS position that is considered a top notch defensive player. Cam is the closest thing we have had in a long time and he is past his prime defensively, but is still very good and I thoroughly enjoyed watching every play he made last year and think it would be even more exciting and enjoyable to watch Escobar every day when that day comes. Thats all

[GormanHarvey]

I'm not -- Escobar knows he is the SS of the future -- and if the Brewers bring him up to play 2b, it starts his clock, and gets him closer to his pay day.

 

Keep him in AAA.

That is probably true, but at the same time you just don't hear many top prospects say things like that - especially when they are known for their defense at what is arguably the toughest position to play.

[TooLiveBrew]

JJ needs to man up and recognize what's best for the team

 

"man up" = take far less money than you're worth? The idea that Hardy owes the Brewers this theoretical move to 3B or 2B doesn't make sense to me. If he could get a comparable contract at 3B/2B, then I see no reason why he wouldn't sign. Trouble is that the Brewers don't necessarily have room for that kind of contract.

[logan82]

I can't remember the last time the Brewers were considered a strong or above average defensive team and everything on defense starts up the middle so I am just intrigued with a player at the SS position that is considered a top notch defensive player.

 

I think that many fans are stuck in the mindset that we are a bad defensive team because we were for so long. It just isn't true anymore. We were considered an above average defensive team in 2008. Dewan's system had us as the 5th best defensive team in MLB last year. UZR/150 on Fangraphs has us at 1.6 or approximately average in 2008.

 

Hardy is considered a top notch defensive player. Of all our starters, only one(Fielder) doesn't have a chance to be average. Two are not expected to be at least average(Weeks, Fielder). Everybody else can be expected to be average at worst. I know there is some discussion on Hart and Braun as well, but Hart was average before 2008 and has the tools to be much better. I think we can expect average from him. Braun also has the tools and should improve in his 2nd year in the outfield.

 

I know it is exciting to have a guy who will make highlight reel plays on a regular basis. I would just rather have the total package offensively and defensively like we have in Hardy. I think it helps us win more games than a great defender. My hope is that Escobar has a good season in Nashville and makes our offseason decisions in regards to Weeks and Hardy really difficult.

 

I agree that Weeks to CF is not a good idea at this point. There isn't room in the outfield and we have decent 2B coming up through the system in 2 years max with Green(2 years) and Lawrie(2 1/2-3 years). I would just ride him out and let him go. Weeks is one of my favorite players, but I am a Brewers fan first and foremost.

 

Edit: Also keep in mind that there was talk about Escobar playing some 2B in AAA this year. You hear prospects and players without regular MLB jobs talk about doing whatever is necessary to play all the time. Think back to when Hall was a super-sub. His favorite position was "starter."

[GormanHarvey]

I have never considered or heard Hardy considered a top notch SS. Above average? Yes Top notch? No. I also feel that if there are people that think the Brewers were an above average defensive team last year, they are probably few and far between.

 

I never said I wanted to lose Hardy. I love having Hardy on this team. It's just a tough call when he really has done to nothing to warrant being asked or expected to move, but not having Escobar play SS, a position at which he could potentially in the top 5 defensively, would seem to be a waste.

[DHonks]

As far as Weeks in CF... the team already missed it's window on that move as well, unless Cain totally tanks this year, it looks like the stars have aligned for him to be the CF in 2010.

Two counter-points...1) it was his collegiate position, so it's nothing new.

2) Cain will be in AA this year. At best we'd be looking at Cain in CF at the end of the 2010 season. Frankly, if you have a solid offensive player and a player loaded with potential in AA, you don't base the big-leaguers position on the guy that is more likely to turn into Alex Escobar than even another Rickie Weeks.

[Never Outhustled]

2) Cain will be in AA this year. At best we'd be looking at Cain in CF at the end of the 2010 season. Frankly, if you have a solid offensive player and a player loaded with potential in AA, you don't base the big-leaguers position on the guy that is more likely to turn into Alex Escobar than even another Rickie Weeks.

Where have you seen this announced? Cain has been playing with Nashville in spring games, and tearing it up. Cain played 1 1/2 years at a+, and played a 1/2 season at AA. He mashed in the AFL. He's ready for AAA, and will be there in my opinion. He'll outhit hit Escobar too.

[Never Outhustled]

This discussion continues to be premature. And how do we continue to discuss our SS of the future without including Brent Brewer? While Escobar hasn't hit a lick all spring, Brewers numbers combined in major and minor league games include a 393 batting average and a 714 slugging %. We have 2 SS's of the future, and a great 1 right now.

 

Lets not make decisions before they're necessary.

[JohnBriggs12]

I think Hardy is on the verge of a MVP type season. If that happens, his price will end up in the stratosphere and it's likely he'd be moved before the 2011 season. Let's see what opens up elsewhere after this season, but Escobar seems to be able to play anywhere athletically and if offensively he progresses enough to help the team somewhere else in 2010, I'd still say Escobar is odds on to be the SS in 2011.

[fondybrewfan]

Its not like 2nd base is a huge premium offensive position. Yeah his offense is probably best suited for a SS but I think he could more than hold is own as an offensive 2nd basemen. His offense would never play at 3rd or in the OF though. JJ would be an above average offensive player at SS, 3rd, or 2nd so it might be more wise from the Brewers perspective to move him, but JJ really has no incentive to do so.

[Ennder]

I have never considered or heard Hardy considered a top notch SS. Above average? Yes Top notch? No. I also feel that if there are people that think the Brewers were an above average defensive team last year, they are probably few and far between.

 

Thats fine, they just happen to be the people who earn money by evaluating defense. When the fielding bible likes a teams defense it has some meaning behind it. JJ Hardy was the 3rd best SS in the NL last year statistically, not sure how that isn't top notch. He was the 3rd best SS in baseball defensively according to plus/minus last year and has been the 5th best over the last 3 years.

 

edit : apparently yuku doesn't like the symbols for plus/minus, just showed up as blank~.

[RobDeer 45]

If we can pay JJ and have him move that would be the best case scenario. I'd love to see him at 2nd! If he won't move I think by far our best move is to trade him after the season. I hate to say that because he's a great player and great guy. But we have to remember this is a business and trading Escobar is not as good of a move for the organization.

[bjkrautk]

I still question the logic that J.J. Hardy playing 2b and Escobar playing ss would become more valuable than Escobar at 2b and Hardy at ss.

 

Fundamentally, I get it, as it maximizes Escobar's value as an elite defensive player....but doesn't it diminish Hardy's value to play him at a position other than ss? (Isn't that why Hardy doesn't want to move?)

If both of their bats are in the lineup, and if you assume that Escobar has an absolute advantage as a defensive player (better at 2b, better at ss), then there is certainly an argument that Escobar is the better option at 2b (since we don't know how difficult the transition would be for Hardy, who plays average-to-above-average defense at ss).

 

 

That being said, I think the argument is premature. While I like that Escobar is willing to do whatever it takes to reach the majors, part of taking that step means showing he can turn last year's offensive performance into a positive trend. Until Escobar shows that he can hit at (or at least, around) Weeks' level, he should be in AAA.

[TooLiveBrew]

I know it is exciting to have a guy who will make highlight reel plays on a regular basis. I would just rather have the total package offensively and defensively like we have in Hardy. I think it helps us win more games than a great defender. My hope is that Escobar has a good season in Nashville and makes our offseason decisions in regards to Weeks and Hardy really difficult.

 

Part of the problem with this point (imo) is that what I, for one, am excited about isn't that Escobar will be on highlight shows -- which he most certainly will. It's that his defense is basically Hardy's with plus-plus range (from basically all scouting reports). I could honestly care less whether or not Alcides winds up with highlights or not. What excites me about his defense is that he will convert more outs than Hardy does. The highlights will just be a natural byproduct of Escobar's great range.

[JJHardy7]

To me, Escobar has to stay at SS. That's his best value. The only real question is JJ and whether or not there are plans to extend him. Have we heard anything about the Brewers having negotiations with him? If we haven't, I have a feeling that JJ is traded or walks when the time comes.

[GormanHarvey]

Thats fine, they just happen to be the people who earn money by evaluating defense. When the fielding bible likes a teams defense it has some meaning behind it. JJ Hardy was the 3rd best SS in the NL last year statistically, not sure how that isn't top notch. He was the 3rd best SS in baseball defensively according to last year and has been the 5th best over the last 3 years.

Obviously I am not a big stats guy in the sense that some of the people that post on here are. But there are times when my eyes can tell me something that numbers on paper can't. And what they tell me is that JJ's range is limited. He is very, very steady and if he gets to a ball its typically an out - especially with his strong arm. But for a SS to be considered elite for me he has to have range that sets him apart from the pack amongst other things and JJ surely does not have that. Just watch him run the bases - I wouldn't be surprised if Prince could beat him 1st to 3rd. Most SS that are considered elite have great range because they are very athletic and quick (like Furcal). What did the fielding bible say about the Brewers defense out of curiousity?

 

Back to my original point - I am looking forward to having someone on the Brewers that is regarded so very highly for his defense - whether that be at 2nd or SS.

[endaround]

The Brewers had three people last year, Cameron, Hardy and Kendall.

[Ennder]

Well I'm not going into the one mans opinion outweighs statistics argument again, it just gets us nowhere. Just because you think JJ is an average SS doesn't mean everyone else does or that he is, we can leave it at that.

[GormanHarvey]

Well I'm not going into the one mans opinion outweighs statistics argument again, it just gets us nowhere. Just because you think JJ is an average SS doesn't mean everyone else does or that he is, we can leave it at that.

I'm fine with being done with this, but I never said he was average. Actually, I made sure I said that he is above average but not elite. You think JJ has plus range??