Weeks compared to Roberts, Hudson

[Tbadder]

For me, I really pull for Rickie. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like he's always working, always trying, always listening to coaching. Sure there's some things I got a beef about with him (that bat waggle drives me nuts) but overall I see improvement (despite backtracking somewhat offensively last year); I see desire. I see a good teammate. Now, I realize those are all observations (so be it) but when he gets on base it's so obvious that he reeks havoc with the other team. Go Rickie Go!

[Fatter than Joey]

When you see that a pitcher is having a hard time finding the strike zone, yet you have hitter after hitter going up to the plate and showing no discipline and hacking at the first pitch out of the pitcher's hand or you have a one run ball game in the late innings with runners on 2nd and 3rd and less than 2 outs and you have hitters hacking wildly at pitches instead of trying to slap the ball the other way there is no way you are going to convince me that K's are not important.

 

The scientific and statistical segments of our society can be so brilliant with their innovations, yet so dense in how they present their findings.

 

I think the big disconnect is that what is described above is a "bad AB" or a "bad approach" -- A lot of "bad ABs" result in K's, that's a fact -- but is there really a difference in hacking and striking out, or hacking and popping out to the SS? On the other hand, a batter can K, but have a good AB.

 

Corey Hart is a guy that I think has a lot of "bad ABs" -- which result in more K's than he probably should have. I think if he changed his approach to get more BBs he'd become a much more valuable player. For a player that is struggling at the plate with their approach, K's are most definitely not a trivial thing to measure.

 

For a guy like Adam Dunn, I'd probably rather he Ks than hitting a bunch of GBs and reducing his power. His rate of K'ing though should remain somewhat constant.

 

Weeks gets on base enough he has value... however he probably has more "bad ABs" than he should - hopefully that will get better.

[Tbadder]

I think the Adam Dunn observation is great. Whenever he strikes it feels like he's accomplished something, but when Corey goes down it just seems weak, a matter of being overmatched.

[Ennder]

I think the Adam Dunn observation is great. Whemeve he strikes it feels like he's accomplished something, but when Corey goes down it just seems weak, a matter of being overmatched.

Also keep in mind a bad approach at the plate doesn't just mean strike outs. Hart has a lot of terrible ABs where he makes contact with a ball out of the strike zone and hits the ball weakly for an out. Estarda had a terrible approach at the plate yet he rarely struck out.

[TooLiveBrew]

Weeks gets on base enough he has value... however he probably has more "bad ABs" than he should - hopefully that will get better.

 

I think that's where the comparison with Roberts & Hudson becomes relevant. I agree with your point earlier that the discussion should be about Weeks, and not that, 'Hey, these guys got better... so Rickie will too!' However, I think the notion with examining that trio is that it's not at all unprecedented for guys that appeared to have some trouble establishing themselves (though were still solid) eventually grew into pretty good players.

[Gobias Industries]

My only problem with Melvin's message of comparing Weeks to Roberts and Hudson. Sticking with Weeks because of what Roberts or Hudson did a few years back makes no sense to me.

 

I'd rather Melvin say something that shows that they have faith in Weeks, rather than what other players did in unrelated situations.

I agree here with you FTJ. I guess I'm just picturing Melvin out in Arizona, showing his printouts to anyone who will listen. Sounds like he's really trying to defend his decision to keep him, when he doesn't really need to. As Melvin said last week, if Weeks was a 4th rounder, most of the naysayers would say he's a decent player instead of "OMGZ he's turribble".

[endaround]

Melvin is really trying to get Witardo to stop saying stupid things in his blog and in his paper. Haudricort and Witardo tend to pile on Weeks even though he wasn't anywhere close to the big problem with the team. Hart, Hall and especially Suppan were much bigger issues.

[Fatter than Joey]

However, I think the notion with examining that trio is that it's not at all unprecedented for guys that appeared to have some trouble establishing themselves (though were still solid) eventually grew into pretty good players.

 

Maybe, It seems like justification coming from Melvin to me.

 

I'd rather hear discussion where and how Weeks can improve, rather than comparisons to other players. It sort of smacks of that "Brooks Robinson was a bad 3b, and then became a HOF defensive player, so can Ryan Braun".

 

I think comparing a player to a historic group of players can be helpful -- for example -- "Player X can expect to decline by Y when he turns 35", or minor-league to major league translations -- because those have a lot more data behind it, -- but one on one comparisons are sort of dangerous IMO.

[Fatter than Joey]

Haudricort and Witardo tend to pile on Weeks even though he wasn't anywhere close to the big problem with the team.

 

It didn't help when the team demoted Weeks to AAA

[logan82]

I think comparing teams' K/BB ratios are more important than just looking at how many times a team or player strikes out - in the NL last season, the teams with the best K/BB ratios were:

 

Braves/Mets - 1.65 K/BB each

Cardinals - 1.70 (probably entirely due to Pujols)

Cubs - 1.86

Dodgers/Phils - 1.90

 

The Braves are actually the outlier in this group, because the rest of them were playoff-caliber teams in the NL, with the Mets losing the WC to the Brewers on the season's last day and the Cardinals just overachieving to maximize their season in spite of having a crappy pitching staff.

I think that if you are going to look at K/BB ratio you should compare it to runs scored and look at all teams instead of team record or whether they were in the playoffs.

[pete]

The noise about Weeks is loud and persistent. It has nothing to do with Haudricourt or Witrado. Listen to the radio or talk to other Brewers fans. Melvin is probably trying to proactively turn down the sound.

 

Personally, I think the mods should cut off the use of the term "tard." At least for me it was popular with the kids who were jerks in middle school. I really haven't encountered an adult who uses the term since other than on Brewers forums. The bullpen catcher runs a charity to help developmentally disabled kids. Can you imagine him cruising through the forum and encountering people using the term "tard."

[DuWayne Steurer]

Rickie had 26 PA's with man on 3rd, less than 2 outs last year. In those 26 instances, he had a .353 batting average, with a 1.364 OPS, and 16 RBI. 3 walks and 4 k's.

 

He had 80 PA's in instances where there were men on 2nd, 3rd, or 2nd and 3rd (no force abailable) and he struck out a total of 14 times in those PA's.

 

Rickie hit .286 with a .919 OPS in situations that meet the "late and close" criteria.

 

All this hand wringing about his strikeouts and lack of productive outs is reality being colored by perception.

[Fatter than Joey]

Personally, I think the mods should cut off the use of the term "tard."

 

?? Where was that used?

[Outlander]

I think some people have misspelled Witrado as Witardo in the past but I think it's just a mistake and wasn't meant to offend.

[Fatter than Joey]

agreed... much like this...

 

Estarda had a terrible approach at the plate yet he rarely struck out.

 

it happens

[phxMILWfan]

The perception of Weeks and Cameron are really irritating. I know that a lot of people think Weeks has much more potential, myself included, but he's criticized way more than he should be. He's a decent major league 2nd baseman with the ability to be better. The average fan who doesn't understand OBP and OPS doesn't realize the quality of player that Weeks and Cameron are. They just see the strike outs and boo. It's frustrating to see/hear.

[Ennder]

agreed... much like this...

 

Estarda had a terrible approach at the plate yet he rarely struck out.

 

it happens

haha, that was just a typo not on purpose. Though now that I see it posted in a quote I like it!