Move Rickie to a new position?

[TheCrew07]

I think to always be blaming the player for this is unfair, especially if they are giving their all towards becoming a better player. With Rickie, I just don't think he is a smart hitter. That isn't his fault, he just may not have the intelligence of figuring out how to change his approach now that the pitchers are much smarter in their approach than they were in the minors.

I wasn't looking to place blame, it is what it is. He is ultimately responsible for his play, it's one thing if a guy just isn't very good, but that's not his issue. Weeks' issues all revolve around fundamentals, and anyone can be a fundamently sound player, regardless of the sport. I figured you would come back with a statement similar to this and I was kicking myself for not explaining better. Hard work doesn't really do anyone any good if they work hard on negative behavior, it's not uncommon, it happens at all levels of sports. Practicing to do some incorrectly only ensures similar or worse results going forward, to get a different result we need to take different action. Bare with me while I give an example.

 

I have a 6' 7" DE that I coach in football, in basketball he plays the post, as 6' 7" is a good size HS center in this area. This kid really wants to play college basketball, but he's not the best athlete around. he actually doesn't even start, though I think his minutes are much more productive than the player he's playing behing. I took him out for dinner (I have a deal with my D Lineman that if any score a touchdown I'm taking them to dinner and this particular kid scored a defensive TD) and we had a long talk about what he wanted to do. I told him that I believe he has the frame to play football at the next left level at which point he opened up to me about his basketball aspirations. I recommended to him that he chase down his dream and we got into discussion about role models, dedication, commitment, etc. I've stayed on his case, every day for the rest of the football season and every time I watch them play basketball or I see him at a girls game I make it a point to ask him what he did to chase down his dream that day. He's a great kid and he's been working his tail off to get better, the only problem is that he's dilligently working on reinforcing negative habits. His shot has way too much motion in it, which makes it's hard to repeat and it takes too much time, no matter how much time he spends shooting the ball he's never going to shoot well enough to move up doing what he's doing. He's simply reinforcing and teaching his muscles to shoot a basketball incorrectly, and he's not a good enough natural athlete to overcome such poor mechanics (this also brings up an interesting coaching dilema I've been pondering, am I out of line taking it upon myself to take this kid and a couple of others into the gym to work on their game because they aren't getting what they need from their basketball coaches after our lifting program?). In the same way I don't how anyone can say that Rickie is unfairly criticized when he doesn't even give himself a chance to be successful because he's going about his business the way he does. He could spend all day every day in the cage and never become a better hitter unless he fixes some very correctable issues related to his balance and timing. Working your rear off to reinforce negative behavior simply doesn't get anyone closer to their goal, and actually only helps build a sense of hopelessness when tangible progress between the lines doesn't take place.

 

If any given player isn't fundamentally sound they'll reach a point where they quit having success, and then they'll lose confidence, so they'll have less success... it's a negative spiral... but the flip side is true as well, if you start having some success it builds your confidence, which in turn creates more success. A wise man once told me that going about your business the same exact way every day and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity... what appreciable change in his approach at the plate has Rickie made? What has Weeks started doing differently around the bag to improve his turns on the double play? He's still doing the same things wrong around the bag that he was doing 3 years ago. Is it mental or is it physical.

 

Your doctor example isn't really applicable, you're talking about a difference in natural gifts, as in difference between a Braun and a Clark, one who's very talented and one who gets the most out what he already has... I've already addressed that issue. Weeks' has abundant talent, his averagish play is entirely within his control, and again when someone doesn't make tangible improvements in certain fundamental aspects of the game, he opens himself up to criticism. His fielding has improved, he does much better getting himself in position to field balls, but other areas of his game haven't improved at all, particularily getting to line drives, plays around 2B, and at the plate. There's no way that Rickie's natural talent is that of a 10 HR hitter for example, he should hit at least as many JJ. He may never play at the level many of us think he's capable of, but it won't be because he's not physically gifted, it will be because of whatever is going on in his head.

[pete]

I think you should question the assumption that Rickie is practicing negative behavior. Additionally sports is filled with players who became great despite not executing in fundamentally sound ways.

[TheCrew07]

Very true, Salome is an excellent example of that. However if you're not fundamentally sound and you're getting poor results, maybe it's time look at correcting what's easily correctable. Some people are gifted enough with hand eye coordination to be able to able to overcome mechanical flaws in their shots/swings and some aren't. I don't see how Rickie is ever going to make consistent contact with his current approach. I've never been a big Svuem guy, but I felt he nailed Rickie's swing in his comments in the paper.

[strawbossisevil]

Easy to say that everyone can do better at fundamentals when you aren't the one facing the 90 mph fastballs and the 12 to 6 curveballs that Rickie is. I don't think there are many of us who could be fundamentally sound facing those type of pitchers, even if we devoted our lives to doing so.

 

You have no proof that Rickie is practicing negative habits. He does the bat waggle, but that doesn't effect his swing.

 

You make it sound like Rickie is uncoachable, that he wants to do things his way or else. Once again (aside from the bat waggle) I would ask for any proof to that point.

 

You really do want to place blame. You can't accept that someone might not be as good as you originally thought they would. If they don't live up to your expectations, somehow such a person is at fault.

 

Intelligence is a natural gift as well. If Weeks isn't intelligent enough to make the right adjustments at the plate (which takes a lot of quick precise thinking), then the doctor comparison is valid.

[TheCrew07]

Easy to say that everyone can do better at fundamentals when you aren't the one facing the 90 mph fastballs and the 12 to 6 curveballs that Rickie is. I don't think there are many of us who could be fundamentally sound facing those type of pitchers, even if we devoted our lives to doing so.

This is going no where fast, we're right back where we start.

 

You're continually talking about skills, I'm talking about things like batting stance, weight transfer, hand position and so on at the plate. On the turn it's simple footwork and throwing mechanics... I never claimed to have the reaction time to hit MLB pitching, Rickie has repeatedly proven he does.

You have no proof that Rickie is practicing negative habits. He does the bat waggle, but that doesn't effect his swing.

You have no proof that he isn't.. it's a logical explanation for his lack of results given his work ethic. Again, what has he changed significantly at the plate since he's come up from the minors? What proof can you offer than it doesn't affect his swing? I know it injured it him and set his career back, that alone would have stopped me from doing it.

 

You make it sound like Rickie is uncoachable, that he wants to do things his way or else. Once again (aside from the bat waggle) I would ask for any proof to that point.

What? I never said that nor do I think that, you may have inferred that at some point. Every report we have is contrary, that he works very hard with his coaches, maybe too hard. It's hard for us to be objective about our performance, sometimes we miss the obvious because we're too close to it. My assessment of his swing aside, his coaches obviously think the issues with his swing are correctable, citing many of the issues that various posters discussed over the winter, and it has been reported as such. You're making much more out of my comments than I intended, I'm willing to accept the opinions of people much closer to the players than I am, and I haven't seen any player or coach, from the Brewers or otherwise say that Weeks isn't immensly gifted. Friend and foe alike seem to be unanimous in that regard.

You really do want to place blame. You can't accept that someone might not be as good as you originally thought they would. If they don't live up to your expectations, somehow such a person is at fault.

Sure... I'm not sure what to say other than Rickie has one of the quickest bats I've ever seen, he's immensely talented. I've repeatedly said it's up to him to fulfill his potential, I'm not quite sure how that has become placing blame. I'm saying that when a player repeatedly makes the same mistakes and doesn't seem to improve, he's earned his criticism... that's it... but you're right, it's my fault he drops the ball or throws it away while making the turn. Seriously... who's fault is it that he's not executing the routine with precision? I agree that Brewers rushed him, I argued against his call up, but ultimately we're all responsible for our own success or failure aren't we? I feel that I am, I'm not going to blame my parents, my boss, or my friends when I fail or make mistakes. I'm going to take ownership of it and move on...

Intelligence is a natural gift as well. If Weeks isn't intelligent enough to make the right adjustments at the plate (which takes a lot of quick precise thinking), then the doctor comparison is valid.

I agree that Weeks doesn't have good baseball instincts if that's what you meant, in my opinion neither do Braun or Hall, but it's hardly a lack of intelligence. Was Tony Gwynn a smarter person, or just a smarter baseball player because he tracked pitchers and pitches in his notebook and was able to remove the uncertainty from his ABs with regularity? He knew the pitchers and cathers better than they knew him... I will agree that the only thing holding Weeks back is the mental side of the game because he's more physically gifted than most, but that has little to do with intelligence. One of the better former Brewer pitchers out of the bullpen and a former closer for the Brewers had a severe learning disability, having watched him play sports from High School through MLB he managed to maximize his gifts inspite of it all. I posted about him before, but I'm not going to give his name because the disability is not common knowledge as I've never seen it reported in the press, and I'd rather it come from him or his family than from me.

 

If Weeks never becomes more than he is then many of us were wrong and you're right it does happen all the time in all level of sports. Maybe he just doesn't have enough of the mental game to allow his physical talents to take over. I'm not willing to cede that point at this time... that this is all he'll ever be when so many of the adjustments he should make (in my opinion) are so minor. I'm not blaming him because I expect more of him, I have no problem taking ownership of my opinion that he's playing below his natural talent level, I'm saying that Weeks is ultimately responsible for his production at the plate and in the field, nothing more, nothing less. The tough thing about all of this is that bad habits are the hardest thing to unteach, muscle memory is very difficult to overcome, it takes constant perfect repitition to undo. For example I have a hard time teaching kids to tackle with their head up when they are willing, they just naturally put their head down if they aren't concentrating on it throughout the tackle. There's so much going on that kids have a hard time focusing in on keeping their head up and eyes open instead the ball carrier hanging a move, his speed, the proper angle, etc... which would make them a better defensive player if they were a consistent tackler. It's the same idea when fixing a swing, there are so many other things going on that's it difficult to focus through the noise on the 1 or 2 things that will make the biggest difference. That's where the tee can become helpful for a hitter... or sled to teach tackling in my case. About the only thing I can say with certainty is that all athletes are different, and there's never a single garunteed way to make the light go on, as a coach we just keep attacking issues from different directions hoping we'll eventually get through. It's not a negative reflection on Weeks or anyone else, it's just the nature of the beast.

[strawbossisevil]

Sure... I'm not sure what to say other than Rickie has one of the quickest bats I've ever seen, he's immensely talented. I've repeatedly said it's up to him to fulfill his potential, I'm not quite sure how that has become placing blame. I'm saying that when a player repeatedly makes the same mistakes and doesn't seem to improve, he's earned his criticism... that's it... but you're right, it's my fault he drops the ball or throws it away while making the turn. Seriously... who's fault is it that he's not executing the routine with precision?

Ok, I never said it was your fault, enough of the strawmen. This is exactly what I meant when you said that there has to be someone at "fault". We can't accept that a player is playing his best, that he's doing everything he can for improvement. We have to heap and pile "criticism" on the player for things he is working his best at correcting. The truth is all player have their flaws, if they do the best they can to improve and cover up those flaws, what is left to criticize?

 

I think baseball intelligence (instincts) can fall into the "natural gifts" as well, and should be taken into consideration when accessing a player. It doesn't nicely fit into the "five tools" but I'd say it is just as important to a player. A person may or may not be able to fix this problem despite all efforts to correct it. Your story about the pitcher is interesting, however, there is a difference between book smarts and street smarts.

 

My point on the 90 mph fastball, and curve was that basic fundamentals would say to wait back on the breaking ball etc. The footwork, weight transfer is easy when you know what pitch is coming, but even the most fundamental MLB players flail occasionally at breaking balls, some will do so more as they don't read pitches as well as others (Rickie appears to be one who has trouble reading what pitch is coming). Fundamentals take place in an environment, and you can't just ignore the environment.

 

No, I have no proof, but I'm not the one coming up with this theory either. Your theory is just one of many possible reasons for his lack of results, I do have a problem with you trying to pass that one of as truth, because it conveniently fits what your expectations of Rickie.

 

Weeks responsibility is to play the best that he possibly can. That is his responsibility and by all accounts he does just that. If his best isn't up to your standards, whose standard is off?

[pete]

I agree that Weeks doesn't have good baseball instincts if that's what you meant, in my opinion neither do Braun or Hall...

 

I won't touch the Braun comment, but I'd say Billy is a natural infielder. He's also hit his share of MLB pitching.

 

I'd also add that arguing that a theory can't be disproved isn't persuasive. I could argue that demons or aliens were affecting Rickie's play and you couldn't disprove it. There are even people who might believe it - hopefully nobody on this forum.

[mcnaulty21]

I won't touch the Braun comment, but I'd say Billy is a natural infielder. He's also hit his share of MLB pitching.

 

I'd also add that arguing that a theory can't be disproved isn't persuasive. I could argue that demons or aliens were affecting Rickie's play and you couldn't disprove it. There are even people who might believe it - hopefully nobody on this forum.

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTgzMjA5MTY3Ml5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTYwNzg0MDA3._V1._SX475_SY280_.jpg

Hey, it could happen!

[RobDeer 45]

Do you guys think Rickie gets moved off 2b while in a Brewers uniform? My buddy and I were discussing because of rumors of that in the past and the projections that came out as him being our 3b. I know that was because they don't assume FA signings but I was curious if others think he might be moving positions in the near future.

[fondybrewfan]

I will say no; it took him too long to even become competent at 2nd that I don't want to even attempt to try him anywhere else. He still isn't good at 2nd; I would have no confidence in him at 3rd thats for sure. He could play 1st but basically anybody can play 1st. I don't think he could play OF either. I think he is a 2nd basemen until he retirer witht he possible excpetion of an AL DH.

[JohnBriggs12]

He doesn't seem like a guy who would make an easy transition to 3B. If he could, sure it makes some sense. I think he could play 1B, but unless there's a void there for some reason, he's not the ideal guy there either. I suspect once his contract is up, he'll be sought after as a DH in the AL.

 

The time to try him in the OF was 4-5 years ago. He could probably could still play some in LF, but for the most part, that ship has sailed too.

[RobDeer 45]

Ya, I just can't see him make a transition. The only good things I see at 3b is that when a guy has to make longer throws he has to let it rip. That can sometimes help a guy out with throwing issues because he's not doing any finesse throws. I also do think he's better on hard hit balls as to slow rollers which he would probably get more of at 3b. That all being said, I think change is not a good thing for him so I just don't think it's worth the risk. Keep him where he's comfortable.

[thebruce44]

I will say no; it took him too long to even become competent at 2nd that I don't want to even attempt to try him anywhere else. He still isn't good at 2nd; I would have no confidence in him at 3rd thats for sure. He could play 1st but basically anybody can play 1st. I don't think he could play OF either. I think he is a 2nd basemen until he retirer witht he possible excpetion of an AL DH.

 

I think he is good at 2nd, he just let his offensive struggles effect him in the field last year. I would expect him to be average to above average at 2nd going forward and don't see him moving.

[cnycerveceros]

This is a long thread and I haven't read any of it. But, I thought I'd share my opinion anyway...

 

My first thought is that it took him a while to become a competent at 2B. I don't think it was his fault because he got rushed and had to do at the Major League level what most players do working their way up. So, I think he could move because he's show he's able to develop. That said, do the Brewers have the time or the need to develop him elsewhere? I don't see why you'd put him elsewhere in the infield given his skill set, and I don't see why they'd need him in the outfield.

[monty57]

This is a long thread and I haven't read any of it.

 

Probably for the better, as it originated in March 2009. The poster who bumped the thread seemed to be asking if a move to 3B is an option down the road when Ramirez is gone. We don't currently have a ready-made, in-house replacement, and it is possible that Weeks will be forced to move off of 2nd if he starts to slow down, which is possible over the next few seasons since he's built like a truck and not a sports car. He certainly has the arm for third, and I think if he loses a step or two, he could settle in to third base, especially if Gennet or someone else proves to be MLB-caliber at second.

[DHonks]

Rickie would be awful at 1b. When covering first on bunts, he always looks afraid of the ball. Seems like there's 5 or 6 plays at first each season where a decent 2b would easily make them but Rickie butchers them (often become errors for catcher, pitcher, or first basemen)

[topper09er]

Rickie does not have a strong arm at all and he throws sidearm. 3rd is not an option for him at all. He doesnt even have the arm for SS.

[DHonks]

topper, I've seen him play SS (in the AFL) and I thought he looked raw but quite capable. However, for SS or 3b he would have to completely revamp his motion and stop his limp-body sidearm throws. He'd actually have to utilize good footwork and his entire body. I always loved Cirillo's over-the-top motion at 3b. I still think Weeks should be in the OF, but I've been saying it for 4 years and the Brewers obviously haven't listened. I'm sure it would help keep him healthier