Revisiting Cameron option

[Ennder]

Sometimes there can be an over reliance on statistics, especially defensive statistics which can't necessarily be measured by direct numbers like you can on offense.

 

True but most people think Cameron is still good defensively and most people think Abreu is terrible in the field at this point. When metrics and scouts both agree you usually have a pretty sure thing.

[paul253]

If a player hits a home run and his team loses, what good did the home run do

 

True, but a home run is a home run and a stolen base is a stolen base. When someone hits 20 home runs, it doesn't matter when they come, its 20 home runs. You can see that player hit the home run, so when trying to figure out how much power he has, you can look at the specific numbers.

most people think Abreu is terrible in the field at this point. When metrics and scouts both agree you usually have a pretty sure thing.

 

I don't know. I've seen people describe Abreu as "solid" defensively, and say that his reputation for being a lousy defender is because of that wall thing. The worst I hear about him defensively comes from this site from people who don't want him.

 

Building a team isn't about "ideal."

 

How can you say that? You can't just slap together a bunch of all-stars and expect them to win the championship every year. Ask the Yankees. You need to get players who compliment each other, especially offensively.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[logan82]

Looking at OBP/SLG/OPS will give you most of that player's offensive value. How a player gets their numbers only makes a difference if those stats are nearly identical.

 

I would take at least 4 of our players by position over the players in the same position on the Yankees.(Hardy, Weeks, Braun, Cameron) The Yankees are far from ideal. They were a terrible defensive team. Like I said, building a team isn't about getting the ideal player at each position, it is about getting the best available player while staying within your budget. The Yankees were a poorly built team. They signed guys to long contracts just before they started to decline. They have improved and should be better next year but still have a couple weak spots in their order.

[Ennder]

How can you say that? You can't just slap together a bunch of all-stars and expect them to win the championship every year. Ask the Yankees. You need to get players who compliment each other, especially offensively.

 

I disagree, a lineup comprised completely of all star level RH power hitters would score a ton of runs. They don't need to compliment each other at all. The Yankees last year got decimated by injuries and had a weak rotation to begin with.

 

I don't know. I've seen people describe Abreu as "solid" defensively,

 

Four years ago sure, very few people who have watched Abreu in the last 3 years think he is good defensively.

[clancyphile]

I would take at least 4 of our players by position over the players in the same position on the Yankees.(Hardy, Weeks, Braun, Cameron)

I'd say at least five:

JJ Hardy, Rickie Weeks, Prince Fielder, Ryan Braun, and Mike Cameron

 

I'm also OK with Jason Kendall and Corey Hart at C and RF

 

Kendall's bat isn't the best (to put it mildly), but he seems to do pretty well with pitchers. Hart's just a solid OF, at least until Cole Gillespie comes along. Cameron may well be replaced by Lorenzo Cain.

[logan82]

I would take Teixeria over Fielder. He is as good offensively and better on defense. I don't know who catches for the Yankees or who they have in the outfield. I might even take Kendall over their catcher and Hart over their other outfielders. I would have to look closer.

[pmg4]

The "free swinging" has nothing to do with it. We need better OBP to get more consistent.

I hate seafood. I love shrimp, though.

 

I equate the phrase "free swinging" to "lower OBP due to strikeout." How do you see it differently?

[Brawndo the Thirst Mutilat]

pmg4 wrote:

I equate the phrase "free swinging" to "lower OBP due to strikeout." How do you see it differently?

Not to speak for anyone else, but I equate the phrase "free swinging" with players that cannot tell the difference between a ball and a strike and swing at bad pitches. Strikeouts have nothing to do with it. If you consistently make weak contact on crappy pitches outside of the strike zone, you are much more of a free swinger than someone like Adam Dunn, who routinely waits for his pitch, stubborn as a mule, even if it means taking a borderline pitch for a called third strike.

[endaround]

I would take Teixeria over Fielder. He is as good offensively and better on defense. I don't know who catches for the Yankees or who they have in the outfield. I might even take Kendall over their catcher and Hart over their other outfielders. I would have to look closer.

 

Posada catches if he ever gets healthy so no Kendall over him assuming he does get healthy. I'm not sure th Yankees know who's catching if Posada isn't healthy. Its difficult to take Hart over Matsui pr Swisher, they seem pretty even.

[TooLiveBrew]

I don't know. I've seen people describe Abreu as "solid" defensively, and say that his reputation for being a lousy defender is because of that wall thing.

 

I'll slightly modify Ennder's response... if anyone that's watched Abreu play defense in the last 3 seasons says anything about him being even close to "solid", he/she is a big fat liar.

 

 

The worst I hear about him defensively comes from this site from people who don't want him.

 

Well the reason is those "people" (myself included) have 1) actually watched him play a decent amount, and 2) don't want him because of his defense, not the other way around -- Abreu would be perfect if he could handle CF even at an average level. Believe it or not, I don't have some sneaky agenda to just randomly bash players with no logical reason. We have Ned Yost to slam like that.

[Ennder]

If you look at the fan scouting site done by Tango you can see that fans agree he has been slipping defensively.

 

http://www.tangotiger.net/scouting/

 

2008 - 48

2007 - 49

2006 - 55

 

He still scores ok on arm strength and accuracy and is slightly above average speed wise but he has lead hands and gets bad jumps on balls.

[logan82]

I equate the phrase "free swinging" to "lower OBP due to strikeout." How do you see it differently?

 

I would say high strikeout guys who don't take walks. Braun and Hart are the only ones on our team I would think of as free swingers. Braun is improving though.

[Ennder]

I don't think they even need to be high strikeout guys. Johnny Estarda was a free swinger, he hacked at anything they threw up there. He didn't really K much.

[logan82]

I don't think they even need to be high strikeout guys. Johnny Estarda was a free swinger, he hacked at anything they threw up there. He didn't really K much.

Good point. I guess guys who don't walk much.