Student Expectations Seen as Causing Grade Disputes

[gypcasino]

This is pretty interesting.

Student Expectations Seen as Causing Grade Disputes

 

"...A recent study by researchers at the University of California, Irvine, found that a third of students surveyed said that they expected B's just for attending lectures, and 40 percent said they deserved a B for completing the required reading..."

[TheCrew07]

It's not just college kids, this sense entitlement is evident everywhere, even on this forum. It was a good read though.

[craigharmann]

Think about children's team sports over the past 20+ years. It's all about self-esteem, and everyone gets a chance to play, not about learning the game, and winning and losing. I fear for what happens when the current youth get out into the job market thinking that they should make $75,000 right out of college, but not have to meet deadlines or have their boss tell them they're doing a good job, or get monthly prizes for showing up to work!

[DHonks]

In my district I have roughly 50% of my 7th graders reading on a 3rd-4th grade level and doing math on a 3rd-4th grade level. Yet they keep getting promoted because "experts" say that we could damage them emotionally by holding them back. Some new studies are being used to implement new strategies. For instance, for a student not turning in his/her work, the student gets 50%.

 

Personally, I'm fairly conservative, but I have decided that the US needs to implement a mandatory birth control plan for all teens. We have a ridiculously high teen birth rate, and at my school that is directly correlated with poorly parented, unmotivated students. My honors students were born when their parents were roughly 27-35, my regular students were born when parents were 14-20, and it's VERY evident in their grades, behavior, personal relationships, maturity, motivation, etc.

[craigharmann]

Personally, I'm fairly conservative, but I have decided that the US needs to implement a mandatory birth control plan for all teens. We have a ridiculously high teen birth rate, and at my school that is directly correlated with poorly parented, unmotivated students. My honors students were born when their parents were roughly 27-35, my regular students were born when parents were 14-20, and it's VERY evident in their grades, behavior, personal relationships, maturity, motivation, etc.

I'm sure that is a big part of it, but another part of it is expectations of parents and parents actually being parents. I'm sorry, but I know I'm not going to always be liked by my child, and that's OK. My role is to make sure that my child becomes an intelligent, responsible contributor to society. Many parents want to be liked by their kids all the time, and will take their child's side in any issue with school. I've had a few friends who are teachers in the public schools share some serious horror stories of parents yelling at them, talking badly to them, just because they're taking their child's side because they believe their child can do no wrong.

[alorrigan]

I could go on and on about this. Having been in college for the last 3 years I have heard way too many students complain about having to do any work or even that they have show up for class. I had one class where a girl showed up for the first two weeks or so and didn't come back till the final and was mad that the professor told her she couldn't pass! I don't know how you can solve this at the middle and high school level but college's need to really up their standards instead of allowing anyone in. I know that many students are weeded out after their freshman year but there are still many upperclassmen who have the same attitude.

[giffted1]

I could go on and on about this. Having been in college for the last 3 years...

I'm also in my third year of college and couldn't agree more. Maybe it's because I go to UW-Oshkosh where I assume a large portion of the student body just goes for the parties, but it's stunning how many (for lack of a better term) idiots are in college. Many just don't seem to grasp the concept of working hard for a grade...that you can't get by with minimal effort like in high school. I know a girl that equates watching some stupid show on MTV with a notebook on her lap to studying and wonders why she's barely carrying a 2.0. Is it ever her fault? Of course not. The professor isn't fair, there should be less emphasis on exams, there should be extra credit, etc.

 

I could go on and on about this as well.

[DHonks]

My college roommate (in 1999) used to complain to his mom about his homework load. Of course he left out that he did his work in co-ed study groups that were spending 80% of the time flirting, 15% planning parties, and 5% doing work. My students today have the same problem in 7th grade due to MP3 players, cell phones (calls and texting), etc.

 

I had a professor at Santa Clara that roamed between Santa Clara and Stanford (with some other schools like Golden Gate), depending on need (since he wasn't tenured). One time he admitted how much he preferred teaching at SCU, because the school allowed him to give any grade the student deserved. At Stanford they didn't want non-tenured teachers giving anything lower than an A, as they'd hate to have students grad school chances hanging on a grade by one of these teachers. Ridiculous if you ask me

[mothershipconnection]

When I finally finish my education some day, rest assured that in at least one course there'll be no easy A, I'd love to fail a bunch of morons. Also, as much as people love to slam the tenure system, it's what allows professors to teach really hard classes. I know a few professors who haven't gotten tenure yet and will admit to watering down their courses because they need positive evals from the highest number of students they can to get their eventual tenure approved and not get fired.

 

This stuff, sadly, isn't confined to undergrads, I know a few slackers who whined and bumbled their way to a master's. It's like everything has to be guaranteed to everyone willing to put in time. Yeah, you were physically present for 3 years of grad school, but you did nothing and can barely spell, you're not entitled to a master's degree. It's too bad our economy continues to evolve into one where you MUST have a college degree, because some people just aren't cut out for it, but could've had a great life working in a factory in the 60's.

 

Some people just have a better history and genetic endowment and we have to accept that. As much as I'd like to be an NFL d-lineman, I just can't, because I have neither the right genes nor the right training, but instead of crying outside of Ted Thompson's office and calling him an unfair jerk, I had to go into a field I was able to succeed in.

[paul253]

I hate to tell the same stories as everyone on here, but my brother is a teacher. He tells me of these parent-teacher conferences in which parents complain about their kids grade and accuse him of all sorts of bias, racial bias included. The students here these parents spewing this crap and they start to believe in it and expect that from now on they are treated differently, almost preferentially. The sad thing is that its only going to get worse as the PC junk is catching on and punishment is getting to the point where it is useless, if it is even handed out at all.

[igor67]

If I may, start a charter school committed towards these goals. I work for one and there are a lot of parents who are really supportive of us holding their children accountable. Oddly enough they learn a lot more getting Cs for us than As at many other schools.

[RU Rah Rah]

I continue to be amazed by student behavior. Outright grade-grubbing has gotten out of control. (I routinely get asked to change grades simply to make students feel better -- not because of any apparent errors on exams or papers.) And it's been accompanied by a drop in effort. In the big lecture course that I teach, my students routinely ask me to post all of the notes and PowerPoint slides online -- you know, so they don't actually have to attend said lecture and take notes. (Apparently I'm a tyrant because I expect them to show up twice a week.) I'm also obliged to provide a detailed study guide before every exam -- and God help me if that document doesn't include every last possible question. Also, there is now an expectation that students somehow possess a constitutional right to extra credit.

[hammytime]

I've faced similar problems this year. I teach a mixed group of 4th and 5th graders (gifted and high achieving students). The whining, complaining, and outright giving up this year when they don't "get it" right away has been extremely frustrating. Fortunately, as I've met with parents for conferences, and emphasized my expectations, parents have been very supportive and agree that their children need to work harder.

[RightFieldCoder]

This is why I quit the teaching profession and switched to IT.

[davego]

I have been in public education for 15 years. The best way I can describe the feeling is that we (the school, et al) are guilty unless we can prove ourselves innocent in the eyes of many parents. Our young people have an amazing sense of entitlement. That said, I truly enjoy the challenges.

[DHonks]

I think the customer service aspect of teaching is a pain. For instance, if I'm a week behind on grading (due to planning, coaching, or...dare I say...having a life), I'll start getting emails as to why grades weren't entered for that week on the computer system. I think it must have been easier for teachers when there was no transparency. Grades were kept secret until midterms and finals, and parents pressured students to pull grades up. Instead, parents now email us to ask why the student got the grade they did. Don't they talk w/their kids? Still, there used to be some mystery for students and they continued to try hard. Now they can see their grade and it often means they want to give up because it seems a useless cause

[RU Rah Rah]

Another pet peeve of mine: plagiarism/cheating. It's amazingly hard to actually punish students for doing this. I once caught two cheaters absolutely red-handed and then spent over a year defending my decision to give them a C in the course. (Somehow, they wanted to be considered above average, despite having been caught cheating on the final paper.)

[logan82]

"Students often confuse the level of effort with the quality of work. There is a mentality in students that 'if I work hard, I deserve a high grade.' "

 

This makes sense since all you have to do to get good grades in high school is put in the effort.

 

 

Don't they talk w/their kids?

 

I don't know about other parents, but my son usually "forgets" to bring home notes about his missing assignments. He always has his work done, he just doesn't get it from his locker to the teacher. If the teachers don't have the grades in the computer, we don't usually know about his missing assignments until the teacher calls with a couple weeks left in the semester. Bottom line is that kids can be purposely deceptive if they think they are going to get in trouble for something.

[alorrigan]

It's too bad our economy continues to evolve into one where you MUST have a college degree, because some people just aren't cut out for it, but could've had a great life working in a factory in the 60's.

You hit the nail on the head. This is pretty much the only reason I am working on my Master's Degree. I know of many people who have or will have a Bachelors who shouldn't that I don't want to be lumped in with them by employers.

[RyDogg66]

That was a good article, I told my wife about it, who teaches at UW-Oshkosh and she told me that it had already made it around her department. My wife has been teaching at the University level for 4 years now and she has spoken about this problem - more like epidemic since the beginning.

 

I continue to be amazed by student behavior. Outright grade-grubbing has gotten out of control. (I routinely get asked to change grades simply to make students feel better -- not because of any apparent errors on exams or papers.) And it's been accompanied by a drop in effort. In the big lecture course that I teach, my students routinely ask me to post all of the notes and PowerPoint slides online -- you know, so they don't actually have to attend said lecture and take notes. (Apparently I'm a tyrant because I expect them to show up twice a week.) I'm also obliged to provide a detailed study guide before every exam -- and God help me if that document doesn't include every last possible question. Also, there is now an expectation that students somehow possess a constitutional right to extra credit.

You have it exactly right. My wife dared give a guy an A/B in a class and the guy pestered my wife all winter to get it changed to an A. The basis of his argument was an email that he interpreted differently than my wife intended. It was in regards to a re-write of a paper that the guy had done spectaluarly poor on. My wife intended to allow him to get full credit on the re-write (which in the syllabus I believe indicated the best one could do was 90%. The student took it to mean he could get "full credit" Finally, after enough bickering by the student my wife changed his grade to an A (he had missed by less than 1% at the time) because she had to focus on teaching her 4 new classes for the spring semester.

 

Also re: extra credit. I know that the B and C students - intelligence wise - just expect that my wife will offer enough extra credit to allow their grades to be bumped to an A. It sickens me.

 

The other thing is my wife has a very strict attendence policy which she announces on the first day of each class and which is clearly in the syllabus, as soon as class is over almost every student lines up with a list od days he or she is already planning on missing, together with excuses for why they should be allowed to miss. Everything from "leaving early for spring break" to "I work a job during the class hour once a week" to "I have a medical condition that doesnt allow me to get to campus very often so I need a standing excuse for any day I miss, because who knows when I will feel crappy"

 

The worst part? Often teachers are evaluated based upon student remarks and surveys at the end of the semester. THe students now have the power to get a teacher forced out, not get tenure, etc. Amazing.

[Bikeage77]

Quick question, do you guys teach in the inner city, suburbs, rural? I'm in the inner city and seem to run into a lot of problems you guys are facing as well. I assume some of this gets into the suburbs, but I'm not sure to what level. Phones are a huge problem. If you spend the entire time trying to end cell phones the students there to learn will just end up losing focus since your struggling with individuals for breaking school rules. It's hard to pick your battles sometimes.

 

Parents are calling kids during class on their phones.

Phones have speakers and basically mini jamboxes and they're playing those in the halls, which leads to bringing them into the classroom.

Kids roaming halls just to avoid class, then when their caught and come into class, they just disrupt class more.

 

The biggest problem I have is the kids who show up (about 60-70%) don't do homework. These are all high school freshman repeats. Of roughly 65 kids, I have about 5 who are passing, and barely. I teach math, and they don't grasp that everything is a stepping stone from one lesson to the next. So by not doing the homework, they leave the tests and quizzes blank because they don't understand the material. I put an attendace grade in there, but it's not enough to really pull them up more than 5 or 7 percent and that's if its perfect. Part of me wants to pass some of the kids who are borderline, but most are in the 40% range. One of the two classes, not a single student has higher than a 55.

 

MPS gets such a bad wrap, already, and the teachers for the most part shouldn't be held as accountable as the students they're working with.

[jaybird2001wi]

During my first stint of college at UW-Whitewater, it did seem like half my professors/teachers gave me credit just for showing up and handing in the work on a timely basis and the other half were at the opposite end of this spectrum where they valued actual performance in the class.
I have had a handful of grade disputes, but for the most part my professors/teachers clearly defined the expectations in the class with the syllabus so numbers did not lie to me at the end of the semester for 90 percent or more of my grades.
But I did have some issues with certain teachers where they made the grade standards much higher than expected. I received a D grade for achieving a 75 percent for one class this last semester for my Art History Class because apparently the cut off point between failure and passing was 69 percent. I had that disagreement with him via e-mail that the amount of material we covered was far too much for such a small exam. We literally, and I am not lying, went through 400-500 pieces of art for an exam that had just 11 pieces we had to identify (it was a fill-in-the-blank exam where we had to identify the Name, Time Period Created, and Culture). This class was a 200-level course just one notch up from the ever-so-easy Gened Course and the Prof made it about as hard as a 400-level course.
In my experience, the 100-level and 200-level courses were I showed up on a consistent basis and kept up the reading, I earned a B about 75 percent of those classes. Its the classes in the 300 to 400 level that really challenge you to do work beyond the classroom.
It also varies on what you study, Business Majors have a tough curriculum. I was a Public Relations Minor and absolutely disliked and managed to get every professor in that department mad at me at least once in my entire time in school. I now regret choosing that as a minor due to the very strict standards, I recall having a PR professor who docked us a full letter grade for the given assignment just for stapling our papers in a 90 degree angle instead of a 45 degree angle. Every professor in that department also docked us a full letter grade if we did not have our paper in the pile with the others when class resumes, even if we simply need to staple our paper and hand it in, it is still a full letter grade because we did not hand it in with the others.

[RU Rah Rah]

The other thing is my wife has a very strict attendence policy which she announces on the first day of each class and which is clearly in the syllabus, as soon as class is over almost every student lines up with a list od days he or she is already planning on missing, together with excuses for why they should be allowed to miss.

And it's not like attending is difficult, in any real sense. You just have to: 1.) get up from where you're sitting; 2.) point yourself toward the appropriate classroom; and 3.) sit down once you get there. Could there be an easier way to earn points in a class? And yet students kick and scream about doing it . . . and reading . . . and taking notes . . . and preparing for exams. Indeed, in my experience, the only things that students don't complain about are: 1.) watching films/YouTube and 2.) listening to music. Everything else seems like a big, fat hassle.

[hawing]

This thread just makes me want to say "Wow." I don't have classroom experiences to share, but I work with UW students in my library and I think that setting provides some indirectly equivalent experiences.

 

For years I've been struck at the lengths some will go to argue over library fines. I was home for the holidays and couldn't return the books (fail - notices are emailed and they include the hotlink to the online renewal page); I didn't get the email (also fail - the information is available online 24/7); I did get the email but didn't think you were serious about a fine; I wasn't done using the book yet and think you are inherently unfair to charge me, etc. Honestly, it gets so I almost appreciate the ones who 'fess up and say, "Yeah, I shouldn't have blown it off. I messed up." But they're fewer and farther between.

 

I have to admit that I can't think of a time I've had to contend with parental argument over a student's fine (knock on wood). But when I was checking some UW-Madison housing pages recently, I came across these:

 

Tips for parents who contact UW Housing about their student's issues

And there's a whole Parent Program at UW-Madison now.

 

I don't want to sound like a fuddy-duddy "things weren't like that in MY day" type, but as a UW-Madison student in the 1980s I had a couple of issues with University Housing (one financial, one interpersonal), and I handled both of them myself. For the interpersonal issue, I sought advice from my mother and other adults, but it never occurred to me to have anyone else contact the University on my behalf. And I don't consider myself to be exceptionally independent or self-reliant (definitely not at age 20).

 

I suppose this is at least partly the result of helicopter parenting. I can't fathom how to reverse the trend, though, and feel for those of you who bear the brunt more directly than I do. I shudder to imagine what schools and universities will be like once their faculty and staff are made up more of people from the current student generation.

 

P.S. In the 'helicopter parenting' link I provided above, I love this part, not because of the phenomenon but the phrase is neat:

In Scandinavia, this phenomenon is known as curling parenthood and describes parents who attempt to sweep all obstacles out of the paths of their children.

Maybe it's the Wisconsinite in me.

[logan82]

I think there should be more parent education. There is a big push for parents to be involved with their kids education, and there should be. Some parents take it to far though. It is tough to let your kids make mistakes on their own and get hurt.

 

I see no reason to give a less intelligent student the same grade as an intelligent student. You get a C if you give max effort, but if you are not smart, you should never get an A. It just isn't fair to smart kids.