McClouth signs with Pirates for 3 years + Team option

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

http://sports.espn.go.com...s&source=MLBHeadlines

 

This might be "buying high" for the Pirates, but I'm not sure the terms of the deal so I won't jump conclusions. I'm not sure how many arby years it buys out either after checking the article. If I had to suspect, it looks like a good deal for the Bucs because of the team option after the 3rd year.

[chuckiehacks]

The deal buys out all three arby years, the option is the first FA year. Dejan Kovacevic is reporting that there is $15.75MM guaranteed.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

That's not too bad if McClouth continues to put up an 800+ OPS with ok defense in CF.

[brewerguy71]

ok defense in CF

He did win a Gold Glove last year....

 

I dont get the "buying high" feeling here on him. He has progressed nicely over the course of his career and is still a couple years away from peak. I would attribute a lot of his success of last year to getting a better understanding of the strike zone and better discipline at the plate. That type of thing tends to only get better with time. In this respect, as well as the defense, he is a better player than Braun (and thats with playing in a pitchers park).

 

Nice deal for the Pirates, but I wonder what they are going to do with McCutcheon now. They must be getting ready to move one of these guys to RF.

 

(fixed code --1992)

[endaround]

His bat won a gold glove

[pitchleague]

I did a complete double take the first time I read this thread title. "Why in the heck did McClung sign with the Pirates?! He's OUR property!!!" Then, I read it again and said, "oh."

 

I think it's a fine signing for the Pirates. They need SOMEBODY for the fans of Pittsburgh to be excited about. Lord knows that all their high draft picks used on pitching haven't done very much. He's certainly more deserving of a contract like this than Brady Clark was, right?

[Scooter1027]

His bat won a gold glove

Bingo. Not uncommon of course, but that's what happened. According to Fangraph's UZR/150 stats, McLouth was 13.7 runs below the average CF last year, with a UZR/150 games of -13.3. Other defensive metrics agree with this (Dewan's Plus/Minus of -40, RZR of .867 where an average CF is .896, and so on). He's a good player, most likely worth the investment for Pittsburgh, but he defense was not good last year.

 

On the flip side, for the poster that compared him to Braun, Ryan's defense was only 2.6 runs below average in LF in 149 games (UZR/150 of -2.8). Now certainly CF is a tougher position, and defensive metrics are far from perfect, but they all seem to agree that McLouth was pretty below average last year. He had a nice shiny fielding percentage, but fact is his lack of range prevented him from getting to a lot of balls the average CF would get to.

[JohnBriggs12]

I don't know about his overall defense but he did make a lot of "highlight reel" plays and those stick in peoples memories. Plus he did make only 1 error. I think the zone ratings are somewhat misleading especially for the CF. Guys that call off the corner OFs all the time are going to have better zone ratings than guys who might let the corner OF make the play. McLouth played most of the year with Bay in LF who covers a lot of ground and is a very competent fielder. No reason to call him off as often as you would with say a Carlos Lee. On the other side he had Nady who has a very strong arm. The CF is going to let Nady take any ball where a throw is needed.

 

Baseball-reference had his range factor above the league average by the way. He certainly has the speed to play CF if his career 92% SB average is any indication.

[Scooter1027]

The RZR ratings as seen on Hardball Times only take into account "in zone" plays, out of zone plays (such as "calling off a LF") are looked at separately, if I'm not mistaken. He was fairly below average there too. I don't think the problem is his speed, I'm guessing it's just an instincts thing, getting good jumps. Of course, you're likely going to make more "highlight reel plays" if you're late getting to a ball (due to a poor jump) that another CF would be there waiting for. Those types of instincts are the reason that Cameron was still 12.2 runs above average last year (+17.2 runs/150 games). Of course, that could get better with experience for Nate, but as of now, he did not deserve that gold glove.

[brewerguy71]

Of course, you're likely going to make more "highlight reel plays" if you're late getting to a ball (due to a poor jump)

 

I cant help but bring up the Braun comparison again on this comment.....

 

As has been mentioned here, defensive metrics are not perfect, in fact they are deeply flawed. These same metrics allow the thought that JJ Hardy is a good defensive shortstop, when he is merely adequate.

 

I just tend to get really annoyed when people say things like "buying high" on a guy who in many respects is just a tad lower in ability and performance to Braun, who has the sky for the limit on his future.

 

Did he deserve a gold glove or the contract? I believe he is a good fielder, I believe he is a good player. He won the gold glove and if he had the pieces around him that Braun does, and played in a more hitter friendly park, would we even be making statements like "buying high" or give him the same benefit of the doubt that Braun is given?

[Ennder]

As has been mentioned here, defensive metrics are not perfect, in fact they are deeply flawed. These same metrics allow the thought that JJ Hardy is a good defensive shortstop, when he is merely adequate

 

Personal observations are not perfect, in fact they are deeply flawed. These same observations allow the thought that JJ hardy is a merely adequate defensive SS when he is actually a good one.

[homer]

Ennder wrote:

 

Personal observations are not perfect, in fact they are deeply flawed. These same observations allow the thought that JJ hardy is a merely adequate defensive SS when he is actually a good one.

Aren't most defensive metrics based on the personal observation of some stringer in the press box?

[TooLiveBrew]

PNC Park is a LH hitter's dream in terms of dimensions, so the argument about his park doesn't hold up well imo. He put up better numbers at home in 2008, & has done so his whole career.

 

 

Did he deserve a gold glove or the contract? I believe he is a good fielder

 

I think he deserved the contract, but I think you're wrong on his fielding. McLouth just isn't as talented a player as Braun, and I don't agree that the 'sky's the limit' for Nate. Not trying to say McLouth isn't a good player, though. That LH bat clearly can do some damage. But if you take him out of CF (as they should, defensively), his bat doesn't have the same value at a corner OF spot. Braun's on the other hand, still holds up well.

[Ennder]

Aren't most defensive metrics based on the personal observation of some stringer in the press box?

Yes they are somewhat. I'm just tired of people bashing defensive metrics and then saying the reason they are flawed is because of their own personal observations. Nothing is more flawed than one fans personal observations pretty much.

[1992casey]

I saw this done on TV once. People track balls in play with computer software.