Should players be associated with a city or with a franchise?

[UeckerAddict]

This has bugged me for a number of years. A friend of mine is big Braves fan. I am always quick to cite two of the retired numbers on Atlanta's outfield wall:

 

Eddie Mathews: Played in Atlanta for only one season.

 

Warren Spahn: Never played in Atlanta

 

This brings me to the question: Can a city really champion players who never/barely played there? I would love to see Spahn and Mathews numbers retired in Milwaukee, but the franchise seems to take precedence. Those players were never loved in Atlanta the way they were in Milwaukee. Just because the mascot name is the same really doesn't have any correlation to the place they had their great moments. Why doesn't Atlanta retire Babe Ruth's number? He played for the Boston Braves in 1935.

 

Obviously, players are being associated with the franchise rather than the city, but is this right? Do you agree. Obviously, I do not.

[temke]

the same could be said for the brewers retiring hank aaron's number. he only played 2 seasons for the brewers

[SeriesFinale]

Or Fingers, although he had some of his best seasons here. I guess I'll just usually think of him as an A.

[UeckerAddict]

the same could be said for the brewers retiring hank aaron's number. he only played 2 seasons for the brewers

True, but under my original line of thinking, he should have his number retired in Milwaukee for what he did with the Milwaukee Braves. However, that is probably not the case. It was the right move for the wrong reason.

 

Also, Rollie fingers' number is retired by the A's. Mathews and Spahn do not have their numbers retired in Milwaukee.

[bball123h]

the same could be said for the brewers retiring hank aaron's number. he only played 2 seasons for the brewers

But he won a World Series in Milwaukee, which is the point of the argument Aaron and Milwaukee isn't anywhere near the stretch of Boggs and Tampa.

[Invader3K]

The Braves are the franchise, thus they retain the heritage, not the city of Milwaukee, unfortunately. The Brewers retiring the numbers of those players would just seem fake and corny.

[Bikeage77]

Also, Rollie fingers' number is retired by the A's. Mathews and Spahn do not have their numbers retired in Milwaukee.

Fingers played for the A's, Brewers, and Padres. A's and Brewers retired his numbers. What happened with Aaron and his number being retired in Milwaukee was more of a tribute to what he did for the city, and because he played in a Brewers uni, it worked out. If Spahn or Mathews played in a Brewers uniform only a season, or a half of season in the twilight of their career, the same case could have been stated.

 

It doesn't bother me that they aren't retired by the Brewers, but I think that's the purpose of the Milwaukee Braves tribute at Miller Park.

[JohnBriggs12]

The Braves are the franchise, thus they retain the heritage, not the city of Milwaukee, unfortunately. The Brewers retiring the numbers of those players would just seem fake and corny.

Not to us fans who remember Invader3K. Spahn and Mathews' images on Atlanta's wall sickens me. They were Milwaukee Braves. The Milwaukee Braves didn't honor Rabbit Maranville or any other Boston Braves.

[Invader3K]

I don't know...I could just imagine fans of other teams (like the Cubs) mocking it...you know, saying the Brewers are just trying to glom onto the history of the better team since most of the Brewers' history doesn't have much to celebrate.

 

Personally, I wouldn't really care either way. Though I think most of the great Braves are honored on the "Walk of Fame" outside Miller Park, if I'm not mistaken. I know Matthews and Spahn are for sure.

[MillerParkSouth]

it kind of bothers me that Aaron is wearing an Atlanta Brave hat in the HOF instead of a Milwaukee Brave hat. correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't he play longer in Milwaukee, have better years in Milwaukee and win a WS in Milwaukee? Sure he broke Ruth's record in Atlanta, but the best (and most) years of his career were in Milwaukee, right?

[whizkid]

I grew up in the 50s and 60s idolizing Hank, Eddie and Spahnie and I'm glad Atlanta has honored them. I'm glad the Brewers retired Hanks number since he played for the Brewers and don't think it would be right to retire Eddie's and Spahnies. I was there the night they were added to the walk of fame and it was great, appropriate and along with the Braves memorial at Miller Park, enough.

JB, I wish you'd stop trying to talk for all us oldfarts and just express your own feeling on these sorts of things.

 

[Outlander]

I think it would look kind of weird to have the Milwaukee Brewers retire a Milwaukee Braves uniform number since the Milwaukee Braves don't exist anymore. However, Warren Spahn is possibly the best left handed pitchers of all time and played the majority of his career in Milwaukee just outside where Miller Park resides so a statue similar to Aaron and Yount would be appropriate in my opinion.

 

I also think Atlanta is obligated to retire his number because that is where the franchise currently resides so it would would look foolish and unfair to Spahn for the franchsie not to retire his number.

[Invader3K]

Right, exactly. Like I said, the Braves retain the rights to the franchise, and the franchise history...which is why it's so silly when the Brewers do a throwback night and wear Milwaukee Braves uniforms. I really hate that...I'd rather have a team that can be proud of its own history than one that has to pretend to have links to one from another era they aren't really connected to.

 

That said, I'm all for any other statues or monuments to the Milwaukee Braves, outside the park. The inner part of the baseball field area should be reserved for actual Milwaukee Brewers stuff.

[whizkid]

I don't find the Braves throwback silly, it's a tribute to Milwaukee's baseball history. I just wish they wouldn't do it against the Braves. All teams have or have had throwbacks, including Negro leagues. Miller Park is Milwaukee's baseball stadium, not the Brewers, inside or out.

[Invader3K]

The Negro League thing I get, since those teams are obviously not active in any shape or form anymore, and the Brewers would be the only logical choice to carry on the brief heritage of the Milwaukee Bears. What gets me is that the Brewers have nothing to do with the Milwaukee Braves, other than the fact that both teams played at County Stadium for part of their respective histories. It seems like a Wendy type move, like the Brewers are saying "We're not good enough to celebrate our own heritage, we have to use someone else's."

 

But yes, maybe I'd be less bothered by the throwback uniform issue if they didn't wear them against Atlanta. Having the "Braves" vs the Braves is just odd.

[And That]

I want the next throwback night to be whenever the Orioles next come to Miller Park. We can wear the 1901 Milwaukee Brewers unis and complain about the Orioles not retiring John Anderson's number. Without him, the '01 Brewers may not have even won 48 games.

[Invader3K]

Heck, have a Pilots throwback night while we're at it.

[CheezWizHed]

Would you feel the same if the Milwaukee Braves moved to Atlanta and became the Atlanta Widgets, while the Seattle Pilots became the Milwaukee Braves again? (i.e. the Cleveland Browns/Balitmore Ravens situation)

[Fatter than Joey]

Would you feel the same if the Milwaukee Braves moved to Atlanta and became the Atlanta , while the Seattle Pilots became the Milwaukee Braves again?

 

It's not the player's fault one way or the other -- I think the Brewers should recognize the Braves that played in Milwaukee, and I have no problem with the ATL Braves recognizing players from their history either.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

I want the next throwback night to be whenever the Orioles next come to Miller Park. We can wear the 1901 Milwaukee Brewers unis and complain about the Orioles not retiring John Anderson's number. Without him, the '01 Brewers may not have even won 48 games.

Did you get a chance to head out to Lloyd Street Grounds at all that year? I heard they had free horse carriage parking.

[SeriesFinale]

I think Bikeage and Invader3K have nailed it...the Walk of Fame and Milwaukee Braves' areas at MP are appropriate tributes...we can't really retire Spahn and Matthews' numbers since they didn't play as Brewers. I suppose it would be cool to have a general "Milwaukee Braves" medallion up by Ueck's up on the far back wall, denoting the HOF Braves that spent their career in Milwaukee and all the titles won in Milwaukee.

 

I'm also oddly defensive of Aaron's Milwaukee connection, strange considering I was born in 1975!

[UeckerAddict]

I get the concept about franchises and all of that. However, it would be weird to me if, for example, the Brewers eventually shipped up and left town for Oklahoma City. Then Milwaukee gets a new franchise while Oklahoma City has the retired numbers of Yount, Molitor, and even Braun for their team. It just wouldn't feel right to me. I guess it's my opinion that players should me more identified where fans grew up loving them. By the responses, I can tell that I am in the minority. I'm not attacking anyone for what they think. I just think a heck of a lot more people in Wisconsin love(d) Warren Spahn than in Georgia.

 

In response to Cub fans mocking us, I will passionately state that I wouldn't care one bit about what Cub fans thought about whose numbers are retired in Milwaukee. Nothing a Cub fan thinks about my team will ever penetrate my skin.

[SeriesFinale]

A pretty interesting read, for what it's worth: http://en.wikipedia.org/w..._Baseball_retired_numbers

 

Worth noting that Mollie never ended up on Toronto's "Circle of Excellence," despite a few very solid seasons (two All-Star appearances, Silver Slugger awards, a World Series MVP). I guess three seasons are just too few, for now at least.

 

Also, the Nationals imported none of the Expos' retired numbers, and as of yet, haven't retired Gary Carter, say, as a National.

 

The more I think of it, the more ridiculous it was that the Atlanta Braves retired Spahn's number...I mean, did Spahn give a speech to the Atlanta fans when they did it?

[nate82]

I believe players should be associated with a city more so than a franchise. That doesn't mean that a franchise can't retire a number or have them in their hall of fame. Matthews, Spahn, Hank, and others are probably more known with their time with the Milwaukee Braves. More people will remember them as Milwaukee Braves. To me it doesn't really matter if they played in Milwaukee and for a significant amount of time then they should or could have their numbers retired or be apart of the teams hall of fame.

 

I wonder what peoples reactions would be if next year you see Joe Torre as a member of the Milwaukee hall of fame. I don't even consider it as the Brewers hall of fame it really is the cities heroes more so than the teams. To me it is something so small and it doesn't even really matter to me at all.

[pmg4]

I heard the answer to why they always play the Braves on throwback night. Schlesinger explained it a couple of years ago in an interview with Bob & Brian. Because the Braves are still an active franchise, the Brewers have to get permission to use "their" uniforms, even as a one-time promotion. The Braves granted permission with the stipulation that it has to be a Brewers-Braves game.

 

I agree that it would be more interesting to see the throwback Braves against a "historic" rival, like the Yanks or Cubs, but it's not up to them.