How can the World Series be as big as the Super Bowl?

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

It doesn't show that FTJ is wrong, it just shows that he didn't care to argue against your point, he just decided to be anal and correct your spelling. Generally speaking though, he probably didn't attack your argument because he didn't have anything good to attack.

[Fatter than Joey]

Arguing that: A is more popular than B, therefore A is enjoyed by people with below average intelligence -- is a laughably bad and entirely unsupportable argument, and void of logic.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Arguing that: A is more popular than B, therefore A is enjoyed by people with below average intelligence -- is a laughably bad and entirely unsupportable argument, and void of logic.

Yeah, I don't agree with that either. There's a lot of smart people out there that like football. It would be interesting though to see a study that came out with the average IQ of the fans of each sport.

[Invader3K]

Guys...I think turning this into a discussion of dumb people vs smart people is going way off course. I think it would be accurate to say that both dumb and smart people like various sports, and leave it at that. Honestly, claiming baseball fans are smarter than football fans or vice versa just smacks of elitism.

[Fatter than Joey]

It would be interesting though to see a study that came out with the average IQ of the fans of each sport.

 

It would in fact be interesting, but I don't think would have a bit to do with why the SB is more popular than the WS.

 

I think there are a lot of factors -- including baseball's recent labor and steroid WHOAS, lack of marketable stars, etc...

 

When I was a kid, Heavyweight boxing was probably as big as the Super Bowl -- Boxing has since gone down the toilet, lots of things factor into that.

 

Honestly, claiming baseball fans are smarter than football fans or vice versa just smacks of elitism.

 

Absolutely.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

I think there are a lot of factors -- including baseball's recent labor and steroid WHOAS, lack of marketable stars, etc...

I don't think any of those factors have anything to do with it. Steroids are ignored in football (see Shawn Merrimann) and the NFL has had their share of labor disagreements including the new CBA coming up in the next year or two. If you want to talk about image, there is so much crime in the NFL (see Pacman Jones, Chris Henry, Tank Williams, the list goes on forever), and people still watch it at the same rate.

[Fatter than Joey]

Steroids are ignored in football

 

Exactly. The public had to deal with a steroid user breaking one of baseball's hallowed records.

 

the NFL has had their share of labor disagreements including the new CBA coming up in the next year or two.

 

Sure -- and if the union strikes in 2011, I would certainly bet that MLB would enjoy new/more fans because of it.

 

If you want to talk about image,

 

I really didn't say "image" I said "marketable stars" -- The NFL can run out Peyton Manning, Brett Favre, etc... I think they have a greater ability to pimp the game than MLB goes.

[danzig6767]

I'm a bigger football fan, but one thing i do prefer about baseball is attending games in person. Maybe it's just the terrible weather aspect in Wisconsin for me, but i absolutely love attending a baseball game on a hot summer day. First spending a few hours tailgating while baking in the sun, drinking and eating with some friends. Then going into the ballpark and all the wonderful smells that always remind of going to games as a kid entering County Stadium. Finally the game itself. Baseball lends itself more for people to casually watch the game and thus you can feel laid back and converse with whoever you're attending the game with.

 

Football is a much more intense event to attend in person, unless say it's a baseball game late in the year with a ton on the line. At football games, the crowd is expected to be up and loud often to effect the other team. While that is fun and all, it's usually cold at Packer games and i like a bit more the slower pace casual aspect of being at a baseball game on a beautiful day.

[topper09er]

Yea lets not get off topic about spelling and the average intelligence of different fans, plus spelling has nothing to do with intelligence, its just memorizing random rules. Also, now i see there is a spellcheck so i will work on that for you.

 

My main point is that the strategy involved with baseball is just as complicated as in football and that strategic decisions in baseball tend to have more of an impact on the game than in football. I think this is definitely not the conventional opinion by the average fan, but i also think the average fans knows far less about baseball then they think they do. If you dont appreciate a pitcher throwing a nasty curveball for a strike when the count is 2-0 instead of missing the zone or having to throw a fastball then i dont think you just flat do not understand the complexity of baseball any more then "pitch the ball, hit the ball, field the ball." I am not saying people on this forum dont know this, just that the average fan doesnt. I really think A LOT of people think they understand baseball but they just dont, there are so many times at brewer games or at bars when i hear people talking about the game to their friends and are just so wrong they have no idea. Like when on TV a pitcher throws a change-op down the middle and the hitter takes it and everyone is like, what is he looking at, that was right down the middle...but they dont understand the hitter is looking fastball, or anyone who thinks that if a pitcher has a lot of wins they must be really good or if they dont have a good W/L % they must be bad pitchers regardless of their ERA, WHIP, Ks, OppBA etc. There are so many examples of things like this, but there are lots of fans who understand what zone vs. man defense is in football or play action passing or blitzing but they dont realize there are things which are analogous to those concepts in baseball.

[MJLiverock]

Throwing a a nasty curveball 2-0 for a strike is more about talent than strategy, it's not like Turbow chose to throw a nasty breaking ball in the dirt or over the cather's head when it was 2-0 or 3-0. That's like saying it was great strategy to throw the football to the open reciever. Now if you want to argue about the strategy of the designed play to get that guy open that is different versus just the ability to throw the ball 50 yards and hit him on the run which is more anagolus to locating a wicked pitch.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like Football and Baseball, both have strategy but I just can't agree that baseball as more or better strategy components. Baseball allows more time to think about stratgy because there is no clock but the options that really impact the game on any given play are fairly limited. In football there are 11 players on offense and defense that can be moved in or out at wil resulting in compeletely different formations and skillsets that greatly impact a given play which can also be changed to directly attack or defend a set of skills.

 

Yes teams know Prince Fielder isn't a very good fielding first basemen but they can't really tell every hitter to try and hit the ball toward Fielder to expose his weakness. Hitters tend to hit what they are pitched and most plays result in only 1 or 2 guys being involved after a pitch is thrown. In football any one of the attacking linemen, linebackers, dB's may be blitzing and/or covering a guy causing them to actually move on each play and their movement dictating the flow of the game and actions of the play. Manny Ramirez can disappear into the Green Monster and take a leak and it won't matter unless a hitter can hit the ball to his place in LF. Most baseball plays result in 7 guys standing pretty much still and watching.

 

While batting a manager basically has to decide pinch hit or not, steal or not (if anyone is on base), bunt or not, hit and run or not. Most of these calls are eliminated by who is at the plate. Prince is up with nobody on - - not a lot of decisons to make, he ain't bunting and you ain't pinch hitting. Whether or not he can hit the ball is not strategy that is ability to recognize a pitch and hit. Just like a WR crossing the middle catching the ball and hanging on while a safety lights him up is ability not strategy. The pitcher decides do I throw my FB, Change, or slider if he actually has 3 effective pitches. Location can be attempted but again more a skillset than a strategy and the manager most likely isn't calling the pitch. The pitch call is more like the play calling on Tecmo Bowl for Nintendo, you get four choices and that is it. The QB decides where to thow it and complete it if he can, sort of like locatiing a fastball except strategy wise...On every single football down the offense decides run or pass, sometimes easy choice given down and distance, then decides formation, then decides play package and call play. QB's wear a wristband with 150 different plays (not 3 pitches to choose from) on them that they have to know how to execute along with 10 other guys whose jobs change dramatically depending on the play call.

 

I would say you way shortselling the amount of strategy in football and way overstating the strategy in baseball. I would easily take 25 posters on here and find people that could effectively manage the in game decsions of a baseball game. I seriously doubt I could find 1 person on the best football message board who could effectively gameplan and adjust in game for an entire NFL game.

[Invader3K]

I'm a bigger football fan, but one thing i do prefer about baseball is attending games in person. Maybe it's just the terrible weather aspect in Wisconsin for me, but i absolutely love attending a baseball game on a hot summer day. First spending a few hours tailgating while baking in the sun, drinking and eating with some friends. Then going into the ballpark and all the wonderful smells that always remind of going to games as a kid entering County Stadium. Finally the game itself. Baseball lends itself more for people to casually watch the game and thus you can feel laid back and converse with whoever you're attending the game with.

I agree. I've only been to one Packers game ever, and while I enjoyed and appreciated the experience, I won't be rushing to go to another one because of the weather, and just the general lack of comfort. Maybe I'm spoiled by Miller Park, but the game I was at was in late August at Lambeau, and it was about 55, windy, and constantly drizzling the entire game. I think I'd rather stay home and watch on my home theater than do that again.

[CheezWizHed]

and that strategic decisions in baseball tend to have more of an impact on the game than in football.

Watch Peyton Manning at the line of scrimmage making calls and adjustments on the fly. Mike Holmgren was a genious for making half time adjustments to the game plan. They make a HUGE stagedy impact on the game.

 

Baseball has stragedy, but Yost had a lesser impact on the game than Mike McCarthy. Pitchers/catchers probably have a similar head game going as a QB with the defense, but its still a one-on-one battle instead of 11 pieces to move and coordinate.

 

Maybe each pitcher needs a play clock and a limited number of timeouts. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[topper09er]

Baseball a lot more strategy is done by the players, whereas football the coaches design and call the plays. Think of everything a catcher has to consider when calling pitches. All hitters have to guess pitches to be effective, so if you are facing a 3-4 pitch guy there is a lot to think about. Plus a lot of your argument are the same for football/baseball. Sure Manny can fall asleep if no one hits the ball to him, just like every WR in the NFL does when there is a dive play. You dont need any fancy plays in football when you are the better team, look at the steelers offense, what is so complicated about it? They send some guys out and Big Ben trys to read the defense and find the open guy. He doesnt audible very much at the line. Every play in football calls for a decision just like in baseball, every pitch the catcher calls is the exact same as the offensive coordinator calling a play, they try to either stick with what is working and anticipate what the other team will do and try something which is effective against it. I think there are more obvious situations in football, like 3rd and long you have to pass, but if you get a hitter 0-2 what do you do, high heat, curve in the dirt, change-op, bust him inside? There may be lots of obvious decisions for the manager, but not for the battery. If you think so try to watch an entire baseball game and predict the pitch type/location. You would probably be more wrong than trying to predict run/pass in a football game, there is not usually an obvious pitch in any situation, or else any major league hitter would almost always get a hit in these situations, such as 2-0 or 3-1 when it is usually a fastball count hitter can sit on it and perform well. That is why there is strategy in the catcher calling a curve ball because the hitter will not expect it, just like an offensive coordinator calling a play action bomb on third and 1. There is skill in the pitcher actually throwing it for a strike, but the call is the strategy.

 

My whole argument is that they are much closer than most people not think, not one over the other. If you have Tom Brady and Randy Moss there is no amount of strategy the other coach can do to change the fact that when the ball is in the air Moss will come down with it no matter how many 5'8" DBs are there, the strategy, no matter how complex by the defense, does not matter. However, if you are facing the 2004 Giants you can just walk Barry Bonds and make someone else beat you. The stratey by the defense can affect any potential weapon the other team has. I think there are way too many football coachs who dont get this, like the AZ Cards. There should have been at least 10 deep balls to Fitzgerald that game, but they were stubborn and worried about the strategy too much and thought if he was double covered you have to go somewhere else. That is why they lost, they should have thrown the strategy out the window and just thrown it up to him because he will catch it.

[MJLiverock]

See that is the exact fallacy. Football isn't just saying throw the ball deep to Fitzgerald every time. The reason it doesn't work is because the coach has to understand he needs to protect the QB for 4 to 5 seconds for that to happen, how does he do it? Keep two tight ends in, a running back? If all it was was throwing bombs all day, the defense knows play a few guys deep and blitz like crazy and probably kill the QB. The o-line has to adjust to where the potential blitzers line up an who actually comes at them vs. dropping into coverage.

 

Players in football adjust on the fly at probably 10x the rate of baseball players. Listen to Harrison's interview about the 100 yard interception return. He knew they had a blitz package coming at Warner, limiting the amount of time he had to throw, so it would probably be a slant or quick out. Harrison faked the blitz, causing Warner to misread the play and attempt a quck slant to his receiver at the goal line, but Harrison, knowing a slant was likely slid to the outside on the snap and stepped right into the throwing lane.

[danzig6767]

. I think there are way too many football coachs who dont get this, like the AZ Cards. There should have been at least 10 deep balls to Fitzgerald that game, but they were stubborn and worried about the strategy too much and thought if he was double covered you have to go somewhere else. That is why they lost, they should have thrown the strategy out the window and just thrown it up to him because he will catch it.

Yea geez, why hasn't some football coach figured out how easy the game really is and just adopt the throw it deep every other play to the tall guy strategy for a bunch of easy touchdowns? Boom, watch the wins roll in. If only the game was that simple.

[topper09er]

The game is that simple and if the AZ would have done it they would have won, coaches just dont think it is because in theory the guy is covered, but i like i said before it doesnt matter when you have the best WR in the league. Also, how are all of the decisions that harrison had to think about before the play any different then all of the decisions i went over in my first post above? Its not, just as complex. They are both complex in different ways and take different skills and are both awesome sports to be fans of...baseball is just better though.

[MJLiverock]

I just don't see the hitter guessing on a pitch as strategy of the game more just a function of the game play. Aren't hitters taught; don't guess, see the ball.

 

I could turn the arugment that Football is just throw the bomb to the triple covered WR into why not just throw a 96 MPH split finger that drops from the thighs to the ankles every pitch.

 

Had AZ just started throwing bombs every play, the defense can counter by bringing all out blitzes forcing a throw earlier than desired or flat out knocking the QB senseless. Why do you think a team like the Steelers employes a strategy of shutting down the run game, making an offense one dimensional and then T'ing off on the QB?

[bucks2281]

The Steelers defensive scheme was primarily designed to protect against Arizona going downfield. We saw this many times during the broadcast -- I'll try to find a stillframe from the broadcast. Arizona torched teams downfield during two of their playoff games (Falcons, Eagles), and the Steelers had two weeks to prepare. Even the 1999 Rams couldn't adopt such a strategy -- they aren't playing NFL Blitz on N64.

 

The World Series can't and shouldn't be as big as the Super Bowl. The Super Bowl is the perfect beast -- a single game to decide the championship of the most popular sporting league in the world, during the middle of winter on a Sunday night, at a neutral site. FWIW, I do think the World Series gives hometown fans the warm fuzzies more than a Super Bowl could. Suggestions? Move up the start time by a half hour, and get the games off of FOX.

[Dragonbait]

Dont let Joe Buck broadcast?

[FVBrewerFan]

I agree with most of the reasons already given. Potentially seven games instead of one, etc. I think the other major reason is that most people don't care about MLB teams other than their own. Let's face it, baseball attendance is driven as much by the atmosphere of going to a game moreso than the game itself in most cities- Milwaukee is case in point. With the NFL, people love the game itself. (At the risk of being called sexist...even women.)

 

Casual baseball fans love the expereince of going to the ballpark, and may even love watching their team play. They don't, however, have much interest in watching two teams they don't care about in the WS.

[Invader3K]

I agree with most of the reasons already given. Potentially seven games instead of one, etc. I think the other major reason is that most people don't care about MLB teams other than their own. Let's face it, baseball attendance is driven as much by the atmosphere of going to a game moreso than the game itself in most cities- Milwaukee is case in point. With the NFL, people love the game itself. (At the risk of being called sexist...even women.)

 

Casual baseball fans love the expereince of going to the ballpark, and may even love watching their team play. They don't, however, have much interest in watching two teams they don't care about in the WS.

Definitely agree. While I'll always watch the Super Bowl even if my team isn't in it, I doubt I would watch all the games if it was a best of 5 or 7 type playoff (which of course would never be feasible in football anyway) if the Packers weren't in it.

[nodakfan17]

I may be a little late in weighing in here, but one fact that has yet to be mentioned is that football is more accessible than baseball. I grew up in Green Bay without cable television and never watched a Brewers' game in my own home until Fox Saturday Baseball started picking up Brewers' games a few years ago. However, every year, once October came, I was able to watch MLB games all week and follow the story lines that unfolded during the playoffs. Once the World Series rolled around, I had a vested interest in its outcome. During the 2008 baseball season, the NLDS and ALDS were not even on network television! Now for die hards and people with cable, this isn't an issue, but if Major Leauge Baseball wants to pick up some more casual fans in hopes of boosting World Series viewership, it has to make its product more accessible to the masses. Would as many people watch the Super Bowl if they had not seen a single playoff game?

 

Also, it couldn't hurt if Taco Beel continued to give out free tacos. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[rluzinski]

With regard to the NFL strategy being unnecessarily complicated, I think someone has been playing too much Maddon.

 

With regard to baseball, how much more sophisticated is the strategy employed in the MLB, compared to highschool baseball? I'm sure there are differences but how significant (honest question since I never played above little league). When I played highschool football, I had to memorize 100's of offensive and defensive plays, plus learn the proper in-play strategies and what we did doesn't even BEGIN to compare to what players in the NFL have to do. Baseball just seems so much more structured compared to football.

 

The most interesting strategic part of baseball is pitch selection, IMO. Unfortunately, I don't think the average fan, watching a game on TV, can accurately identify pitch selections. It's hard for any fan do notice that part of the game in person. I hope that we aren't far off from having all telecasts include pitch FX information (pitch velocity, movement and location). That and speeding the damn game up would go a long way. How exciting would football be if they had unlimited timeouts? That's basically the MLB.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

the NLDS and ALDS were not even on network television!

Monday Night Football isn't either. Also, a lot of games are on the semi-inaccessible NFL Network.

[Invader3K]

Yeah, not to be inconsiderate, but I would guess at least 75% of the country has access to TBS, or ESPN for that matter.