Is Kendall an asset or a liability?

[RU Rah Rah]

In another thread, I posted some stats about Kendall's production over the latter 2/3 of 2008. After June 1 (so the final 100 games), he was .241/.321./.317. He was especially miserable in Sept. (.202/.295/.298). Seeing these numbers has made me think a bit about his overall value.

 

I know the argument in his defense, which is (appropriately enough) defense. It's said that he handles the staff especially well, etc., and that this sort of evens out his deficiencies as a hitter. I'm not necessarily disputing that, but I'm wondering if there's any real quantifiable evidence to back it up.

 

I guess what I'm resisting is cliche-mongering. To me, it seems as though the praise of Kendall is typical of what's said (across the board in professional sports) by sportswriters, broadcasters, and fans about nice-guy veterans: their contributions aren't necessarily tangible. They play great defense. They are "leaders" and help out the younger players. Again, I'm not necessarily disputing that, but I'm wondering how much bearing it has on wins and losses. Can you show that it really impacts a team's performance? Or does it just make everybody feel better?

 

(And, just for the record, I don't intend this to be a "trade Kendall" thread. I know he's going to catch a bazillion games for the Brewers this year.)

[endaround]

No I understand the pint, its just that there aren't really any better options anyway so there's little harm right now. Now if Kendall's defense collapses like it did in his year before Milwaukee it could be a problem. As long was we see Kendall hitting 8th or 9th its fine.

[JohnBriggs12]

Ru Rah Rah,

 

I'm glad you started this thread. I've brought up Kendall's lack of offensive production in numerous other threads. In 2008, Kendall hit 47 points under his career BA, 44 points under his career OBP, and 64 points below his career SLP. He's approaching 35. He could well be done. Yet nobody seems concerned about the catching situation. Maybe with rest that a 34 year old guy who hits .246 with no power should get (twice a week instead of twice a month) he might hit closer to his career norms. Maybe had Yost figured this out, he still might be manager. Kendall caught a career high 1,328 innings last year. How ridiculous is that? This will give you an idea. Neither Johnny Bench or Pudge Rodriguez ever caught that many even in their prime. Carlton Fisk did once.

 

I think this is due in large part because Brewer fans have such a high tolerance for bad catchers. Throw out a few guys and suddenly you're brilliant. Forget the rotation and the lineups, the Cubs biggest edge on the Brewers is their starting catchers.

 

By the way, Pudge is still out there. I've always had a soft spot for Mike Rivera, but having Pudge splitting time with Kendall would give this team a boost in an area it needs one.

[Patrick425]

I guess I'm one of those "old school" (for lack of a better term) fans that really appreciates players like Kendall. To say he "threw out a few runners" is a little flippant. If I'm not mistaken he was one of the best, if not the best, at doing this last year. Maybe this was an aberration and he will return closer to his career norms this year, but I don't see how you can say that about his defense and then talk about how far he strayed from his career numbers in offense with no expectations that he may improve on last years numbers.

 

I know that there are many on this board who hate this kind of talk, but not everything about a player can be boiled down to numbers on a stat sheet. I'm a big believer in intangibles. The more I watched Kendall play last year, the more I appreciate what he brings to the field every day. I might feel a little differently if I thought the catching position was rich and deep in talent in MLB, but I don't.

[JohnBriggs12]

Patrick425,

 

Yadier Molina didn't quite match Kendall's CS rate in 2008, but teams ran less on Molina. As much as you may love Kendall's intangibles, even with them, he's far behind Soto and Molina (who excel in both intangibles and stats) in his value to his team and there's no reason to run him out there as much as they did last year.

[DHonks]

I'm with John Briggs on Pudge, although I'm pretty sure he doesn't want to play in Milwaukee. Still, a Pudge/Kendall platoon of sorts could allow both to thrive given the reduced workload.

[Patrick425]

JohnBriggs12[/b]]Patrick425,

 

Yadier Molina didn't quite match Kendall's CS rate in 2008, but teams ran less on Molina. As much as you may love Kendall's intangibles, even with them, he's far behind Soto and Molina (who excel in both intangibles and stats) in his value to his team and there's no reason to run him out there as much as they did last year.

 

I'll agree that Soto and Molina are much more valuable than Kendall, but you might as well compare Kendall to Bench and Munson as well because the Brewers have just as much chance of getting them in their prime as they do Soto and Molina. If someone can name an available catcher that the Brewers can acquire who provides as a better value for his pay than Kendall, I'm all for it. Even if Soto or Molina or Ianneta or some catcher with good offensive stats were available, I'm guessing they would go for as much as $8-$10 million a year or more. I'd rather see the Brewers spend money at other positions and look for value at the catchers position. Which would probably mean living with a good defensive catcher with not great offensive numbers.

 

I remember how excited people were to be getting a 300+ hitting catcher with pop in his bat when the Brewers signed Estrada. That didn't really work out that well.

 

I will agree that Kendal needs much more rest than he got last year.

[rluzinski]

I think Patrick is asking the correct question. Who is available that will give more production/dollar? Last year, Kendall was paid to be between an average catcher and a AAAA one. Even if we assume that he had average intagibles (whatever that means) and defense, he was probably worth the money that he got. If the Brewers want more production from the catching position, they'd have to pay for it. And even if they wanted to, there really are no other options. Sign Pudge to start 80 games?

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Angel Salome could be our starting catcher by July if Kendall is struggling. I know his defense isn't that great, but if it can be serviceable, his bat would give him a lot of value.

[JohnBriggs12]

I agree that it's likely that Kendall is the number one option. The question of the original post is whether that's a good thing or not. I think on balance it's a weakness on this team. There might be some alternatives out there, but probably not at a price the Brewers are willing to pay (the D-Backs are asking too much for Montero), given they have catchers in the pipeline.

 

Not sure why Pudge wouldn't be interested in Milwaukee or that he's got much leverage anymore, but if I'm Melvin I'd at least be monitoring his asking price as the days dwindle down without him having a job.

 

Edit: Article on Marlins website today says Marlins want Pudge but will only offer him the major league minimum. Now I would think the Brewers could afford considerably more than that even if it were for splitting time with Kendall. The article also suggests Pudge may not have a job when training camp opens in February.

[Invader3K]

I see Kendall as a guy who is still very good defensively (actually I think his defensive numbers were up last year, IIRC). Yes, he is quite mediocre on offense and brings virtually no power, but how many quality hitting catchers are out there these days?

 

I do think moving him towards a platoon situation this year could be a good fix, though. Even if it just means starting Rivera or whoever a dozen or so more games this season.

[Crewin06]

Start Kendall 4-5 times a week with Rivera getting 2 starts a week and I think Kendall's and the Catcher position in general will be greatly upgraded.

 

151 games is alot for a catcher. For a 34 year old catcher it is pretty much a recipe for failure.

[TooLiveBrew]

if I'm Melvin I'd at least be monitoring his asking price as the days dwindle down without him having a job.

 

Why waste money on a declining player when we already have Mike Rivera very cheap? Pudge's defense isn't some big difference maker at this point iirc, and he's been bad with the lumber the past two seasons. Rivera projects to give you basically the same offense, and since he's younger, is probably the better bet of the two going forward.

[fondybrewfan]

If Yost & Svuem wouldn't have been so stupid and didn't play Jason 9 out of every 10 games I have to believe he would have performed better at the end of the season. His defense was very good the entire year though. Mike Rivera was hitting so well that it still boggles my mind why he wasn't played more.

 

Kendall is probably at his best if he catches at most 120 games.

[GAME05]

Kendall is such an asset to this team in that he can call a good game, and that's especially important with younger pitchers like Bush and Parra in the rotation.

 

and yeah, his offenses started to really fall, but i'd expect that of even a young catcher who caught that many innings, let alone an older one. sure, he was overused, but there still has to be a good reason that Yost kept playing him even during his bad offensive months instead of Rivera.

[diener34]

It will be interesting to see how it plays out with Macha and Kendall's past "problems".

 

I wouldn't mind seeing Rivera getting 2-3 starts a week. Especially if it will help keep Kendall fresh come September.

[Crewin06]

and yeah, his offenses started to really fall, but i'd expect that of even a young catcher who caught that many innings, let alone an older one. sure, he was overused, but there still has to be a good reason that Yost kept playing him even during his bad offensive months instead of Rivera.

To that I would say there is a good reason Yost was fired.

[Ennder]

If he plays defense like last year he is an asset, if his defense slips he is a liability. Regardless of what he is I just hope he plays a bit less next year.

[RU Rah Rah]

Kendall is such an asset to this team in that he can call a good game, and that's especially important with younger pitchers like Bush and Parra in the rotation.

I basically believe that, too, but can it really be proven? After all, Gallardo pitched well as a 21-year old in '07 with the dreaded Estrada behind the plate much of the time, IIRC.

[rluzinski]

I basically believe that, too, but can it really be proven? After all, Gallardo pitched well as a 21-year old in '07 with the dreaded Estrada behind the plate much of the time, IIRC.

 

About as easily as proving that Kendall was the reason for Suppan's bad season.

[Fatter than Joey]

Kendall is a stopgap, rarely are stopgaps assets beyond the gaps they are stopping.

 

I think he will be well served to catch about 100 games with Rivera catching the other 60...

[logan82]

Every manager that has ever managed Kendall has played him a lot of games. No catcher should play as much as Kendall did last year. Macha has managed him in the past, so hopefully he has changed his mind about Kendall playing day after night games. I doubt it.

 

He is a below average hitter and blaming playing time for his poor hitting is just ignoring that fact.

[reillymcshane]

The Hardball Times Win Shares site has Kendall at 19 win shares last season - the 7th most in the majors. 12 of the 19 win shares were for defense. No catcher in baseball had more defensive win shares than kendall. As a note, Kendall had 4 win shares in 2007 - to show you how much he reportedly improved in 2008. Also, I'd say his 42.7% percentage of throwing out runners was one element to rate his defensive success. No one was better.

 

Ultimately, it's what people have said - who's better? We have Kendall under contract, so there's no getting out from under it. And if he can get a little more rest next year, hopefully he could improve his OBP a little - get it more to the .350 to make him an asset as a hitter.

[RU Rah Rah]

The Hardball Times Win Shares site has Kendall at 19 win shares last season - the 7th most in the majors. 12 of the 19 win shares were for defense. No catcher in baseball had more defensive win shares than kendall. As a note, Kendall had 4 win shares in 2007 - to show you how much he reportedly improved in 2008. Also, I'd say his 42.7% percentage of throwing out runners was one element to rate his defensive success. No one was better.

 

Ultimately, it's what people have said - who's better? We have Kendall under contract, so there's no getting out from under it. And if he can get a little more rest next year, hopefully he could improve his OBP a little - get it more to the .350 to make him an asset as a hitter.

Thanks for pointing this out. It does add some meat to the discussion of Kendall's defensive contributions.

 

For the wiser, stat-minded brains out there: What do you make of Kendall getting 12 win shares for defense? Just looking at the NL rankings, it seems like an aberrant number -- the only other players even close, in terms of defense, also were catchers (Soto and Molina), and they were roughly 25% behind. (They both got about 9.)

[Fatter than Joey]

What do you make of Kendall getting 12 win shares for defense?

 

I think Kendall benefited largely from coaches "testing his arm" -- Catchers (or OFs) with known cannons do not get run on, therefore they probably do not get the chances to rack up the CS's (or assists) -- and the basestealers that do run on a good arm, are probably the guys that are high % SB guys as well and harder to convert into outs.

 

I also think Kendall got the chance do throw out a lot of borderline basestealers laast year, and to his credit, he did well. -- but I don't think that this means Molina has an inferior arm... my guess is that if Molina was in a Brewer's uni last year and had the exact same chances, he would have done as well as Kendall did, if not much better.

 

I suspect Kendall's defensive contributions will slip next year.