Steroid era HOF voting...

[dayzedcrewfan]

So heres a question I want to give all of you. Will any steroid era player ever get into the HOF? McGwire got less votes this year so does that usher in all the rest? Sosa, Bonds and Palmeiro? Whats the view here? IMO none of them should ever get in. Thoughts?

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Those guys will never get in. But other players from that era surely will. Griffey Jr., Frank Thomas deserves to, Jeter, A-Rod, Pudge ... there are plenty.

[Fatter than Joey]

Will any steriod era player ever get into the HOF? Mcguire got less votes this year so does that usher in all the rest?

 

I think a steroid era player will definitely get in... KGJ, Frank Thomas, etc...

 

I do think McGwire will be a benchmark though, once he gets in, others should follow... however, I think there are some legitimate, non-juicer issues with the candidacy of McGwire which sort of clouds the debate.

 

The one I am interested to see what happens with is Roger Clemens, who you cannot make any sort of (reasonable) argument that he is not a sure-fire HOFer.

 

I think in a few years, people will accept the juicers for what they were.

[Outlander]

I think Bonds and Clemens will definitely get in. Without the performance enhancing drugs they may not be the best players ever which they could claim just based on stats but they are definite hall of famers. Off the top of my head I can think of guys from the steroid era that are highly likely to be elected, many on their first try:

 

Tom Glavine, Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson, Ken Griffey Jr., Frank Thomas, Alex Rodriguez, Derek Jeter, Mariono Rivera, Trevor Hoffman, Jeff Bagwell, Craig Biggio, Pedro Martinez, Mike Piazza, Ivan Rodriguez, Manny Ramirez, Jim Thome and others that I can't think of at the moment.

 

Next year Roberto Alomar, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez and Fred McGriff are all eligible to be on the ballot. I'm not sure if you would consider them steroid era players but I wouldn't be surprised to see two of those guys elected next year and all four eventually.

[endaround]

The steroid era started in the 1960s so steroid era players are already in, people just didn't care until Bonds.

[Fatter than Joey]

The steroid era started in the 1960s so steroid era players are already in, people just didn't care until Bonds.

 

That's because of what MLB defined as illegal.

[Patrick425]

endaround[/b]]The steroid era started in the 1960s so steroid era players are already in, people just didn't care until Bonds.

People always say things like this. What is this based on? If it did start in the 60's, I'm sure it wasn't nearly as prevalent as it became in the late 80 through the early 2000's . All you have to do is watch some classic game from the 70's to see that these guys were not nearly as bulked up as they later became.

 

I think a steroid era player will definitely get in... KGJ, Frank Thomas, etc...

I think there is enough circumstantial evidence to state that guys like Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, and McGwire were using PEDs. However, I'm not sure about KGJ. What makes you say this other than the fact that he hit a lot of HRs during the steroid era? A lot of these other guys continued to hit high HR totals (or even seemed to get more powerful) as they got older, which to me, defies logic. Not to mention that most of them were implicated in different investigations and reports. Griffey has not hit the 40 HR mark since his late 20's early 30's (generally considered a players prime years), and I have never heard him implicated or mentioned as a steroid user in any investigation or otherwise. I would not be completely shocked if something came out years from now that indicated that Griffey used steroids, but until I see better evidence of that, I give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Patrick425]

The steroid era started in the 1960s so steroid era players are already in, people just didn't care until Bonds.

 

That's because of what MLB defined as illegal.

FTJ, I'm not saying that you are implying this, however, I really hate the argument that players should not be banned from the HOF for using steroids because it was not "against the rules" when they were using it. That is such a weak argument. Steroids were illegal in general. If players didn't think they were doing anything wrong, they wouldn't have been hiding it. Does MLB need to add to their rules that Murder, rape, and theft is not allowed either?

[Fatter than Joey]

However, I'm not sure about KGJ. What makes you say this other than the fact that he hit a lot of HRs during the steroid era?

 

KGJ was a player that played in what we now call "the steroid era" -- I am sure he will get elected into the HOF.

 

A lot of these other guys continued to hit high HR totals (or even seemed to get more powerful) as they got older, which to me, defies logic.

 

Not really, power is usually the last thing that a hitter loses as they get older. They don't get the bat around as fast, but it is not as if a 40 year old slugger

loses the ability to hit a ball 400+ ft.

 

I have never heard him implicated or mentioned as a steroid user in any investigation or otherwise.

 

I never said or implied KGJ (or Frank Thomas) used steroids, rather that simply they were players that played in the "steroid era" that I think will have no problems being enshrined.

[endaround]

If it has to do with what MLB defines as illegal why is this a discussion? McGwire never played when its was illegal by MLB. And it only became illegal due to Bonds.

 

As to these players, besides Maris' hair falling out we have pitchers admitting that steroids were injected to keep them going. Nolan Ryan using steroids would be the easiest guess.

[Fatter than Joey]

If it has to do with what MLB defines as illegal why is this a discussion?

 

Agreed.

 

I do think though for the sake of discussion, there are players that juiced, and there are those that didn't. The slippery slope is pretending to know

absolutely which ones did and which ones didn't.

 

Honestly, if MLB doesn't ban or outlaw a product, I am not sure why a player should be penalized for using it.

 

Steroids were illegal in general.

 

I think that MLB has generally made things illegal, that are illegal to the general public. I think now, MLB has banned things that are in fact legal to the general public.

[Patrick425]

Not really, power is usually the last thing that a hitter loses as they get older. They don't get the bat around as fast, but it is not as if a 40 year old slugger

loses the ability to hit a ball 400+ ft.

 

Yes, however, I don't think they hit them as often. Also, I'm not a physics expert, but isn't the distance the ball travels somewhat related to bat speed. I know for golf, this is the case.

 

I never said or implied KGJ (or Frank Thomas) used steroids, rather that simply they were players that played in the "steroid era" that I think will have no problems being enshrined.

 

I misread your original post...sorry.

 

If it has to do with what MLB defines as illegal why is this a discussion?

 

So, MLB has to implicitly spell out everything that they would consider a wrongful act? What if a HOF caliber hitter got hit by a pitch, then got so angry at the pitcher that after the game he tracked the pitcher down and shot him? There is nothing listed in MLB rules that states he can't do that. Or, what if a player some how sneaks into an opposing teams locker room (or pays someone else to do so) and somehow poisons there food before a game? Is that ok, because it's not spelled out in the rules that it's not?

 

I'll say it again. These players knew what they were doing was wrong, otherwise they would not have been sneeking around in bathroom stalls in injecting each other, they would have just had the team trainer do it. They were cheating and imho did damage to the integrety of the game. I believe that's one of the criteria that HOF voters are supposed to look at when considering who they vote for.

[Fatter than Joey]

Yes, however, I don't think they hit them as often. Also, I'm not a physics expert, but isn't the distance the ball travels somewhat related to bat speed. I know for golf, this is the case.

 

Sure, but usually a declining slugger is going to become a liability in the field or on the bases, before they lose the ability to generate enough bat speed to hit a ball 400+ feet. Certainly they will struggle to hit top pitching more regularly, but they can certainly still hit the ball far.

[Thurston Fluff]

The steroid era started in the 1960s so steroid era players are already in, people just didn't care until Bonds.

 

Since weight lifting in the 60's wasn't viewed as a way to increases performance in the field I seriously doubt they were juicing to maximize the effects of their workouts. I'm sure there was use of steroids to help recover from injury quicker but that is different than using them to artificially boost body mass. Doctors to this day prescribe steroids to aid patients in recovery.

 

If it has to do with what MLB defines as illegal why is this a discussion? McGwire never played when its was illegal by MLB. And it only became illegal due to Bonds.

 

This is false. Steroids were banned in baseball while McGwire was playing. Remember the whole andro thing and he went out of his way to say it wasn't on the list of banned substances. Perhaps you meant there wasn't any testing or penalties for steroid use but it was most certainly banned. I believe it was banned sometime in the early 90's but I'm not sure of the exact year. Without a doubt before Mac was done playing.

Regardless of when player knew it was unethical. They knew full well it was a way to cheat the game whether it was banned form baseball or merely illegal everywhere. They knew it was a way to gain an unfair advantage over those who chose not to use an illegal substance. For that alone they deserve to be viewed as less a star than their contemporaries who did it the right way.

[endaround]

Which is why the Giants had to give away all their wins when they admitted they stole signals...

 

Steroids were used to build muscle true, but they were used to keep pitchers healthy which can explain the huge depression in runs.

[Invader3K]

Two things:

 

- Steroids weren't actually illegal in the US until around 1990. So, even if guys really started using 'roids in the '60s, it wasn't illegal to begin with. However, this kind of insinuation kind of gets to me, since no one reputable has ever said steroid use in baseball really got going until the mid to late '80s, at least to my knowledge.

 

- MLB does in fact ban substances that are legal for use in the US. I heard Rob Dibble actually discussing this last week on MLB Home Plate. He mentioned that there's stuff you can get at a store like GNC which is actually banned for use by MLB.

[MJLiverock]

Also Andro was a perfectly legal and available over the counter, available to by in any vitamin store, supplement when it was noticed in McGwire's locker. I still remember when it came out because my roommate at the time was taking Andro and had been for about 6 months as he was trying to bulk up his 6 foot 145 pound body. We were both laughing at the insinuation that Andro made McGwire big because it really had done nothing remarkable for my roommate. It has always bothered me that many people think Andro was some sort of illegal substance or that it is the same as taking anabolic sterioids.

[RobertR]

There's been plenty of looking the other way when it was convenient for MLB. They've finally gotten around to doing something about amphetamines which have been around since, at least, the fifties. And, if we're looking at illegality in general, there's probably not a Hall of Famer who played during the Prohibition Era that didn't break the law on some occasion. Ruth was no choir boy. (And, don't get me started on the NFL. How many players do you think take HGH regularly?)

 

I'm guessing Bonds and Clemens will get in, although not on the first ballot. They're just too good not to get in. And I'm certain many who played during the "Steroid Era" but were never associated with PEDs will get in. Heck, Henderson, Ripken, and Gwynn played during that era.

 

Robert

[RU Rah Rah]

I think Bonds and Clemens will definitely get in.

Given how badly McGwire has been drubbed in the voting, I don't see how Bonds and Clemens make it. You have (roughly) the same kind of obvious PED usage and even more blatant lying/evasion after the fact. (As in criminal prosecution for it, potentially.) I guess there could be voters who somehow rationalize that they were HOF-worthy before they engaged in rampant cheating/lying, but no way am I among that crowd.

[TooLiveBrew]

I think in a few years, people will accept the juicers for what they were.

 

Me too, but I think the question is will the voters of the BBWAA finally get over this notion that only a select few were 'juicing'? Until the crusade of Bonds & McGwire & Clemens & Canseco being the faces of some relatively small group of cheaters is put to rest, I doubt anyone with steroid ties or WOAHs will get in.

 

What's really interesting to me is that if you adjust for context, Barry Bonds & Roger Clemens are arguably the best hitter & pitcher to ever play. Both guys performances stood out as 'roided-up men amongst 'roided-up boys. It's a tricky question to me because on principle I agree that I don't want cheaters in the HoF. However, we already have cheaters & racists (etc.) in the Hall, and then on top of that is my belief that Canseco's estimate of ~75% of the league using PEDs is probably right-on (if not low).

[Invader3K]

Also Andro was a perfectly legal and available over the counter, available to by in any vitamin store, supplement when it was noticed in McGwire's locker. I still remember when it came out because my roommate at the time was taking Andro and had been for about 6 months as he was trying to bulk up his 6 foot 145 pound body. We were both laughing at the insinuation that Andro made McGwire big because it really had done nothing remarkable for my roommate. It has always bothered me that many people think Andro was some sort of illegal substance or that it is the same as taking anabolic sterioids.

Yeah, I never got why that became such a huge story. Was andro banned by baseball at the time? No, it wasn't, though it was banned in other sports.

[Schlitz001]

Right, it's not really fair to keep Clemens and Bonds out of the Hall just because they got caught, while others who flew under the radar might get selected.

[Diskono]

I don't care as much about the roids as I care about the inflated stats in general. I'm not saying that that inflated stats are bad or anything, and are a lot of contributing factors - roids, juiced balls, expansion, Wayne Franklin, etc. Is hitting 500 dingers really that impressive these days? Personally, I think that McGwire is a HOFer - not so much for his career totals, but because he was so dominant for a reasonable period of time. As such, I'd tend vote for an Albert Belle before someone like Palmeiro or Sosa, but that just takes us back to the Hall of Fame vs Hall of Very Good debate.

[Patrick425]

Every time this thread gets bumped to the top, I can feel my heart rate go up.

This is actually a quote from someone in the Powell thread. But it pretty much sums up my feelings about this thread or any other threads about steroids that appear on this board.

 

I don't share this apethetic veiw about steroids at all. I think it's a big black eye on baseball and it bothers me that some people don't see what the big deal is about players artificially enhancing their performances. I guess I'll have to do my best to try to avoid this thread because it just angers me.

[TooLiveBrew]

I don't think it's not a big deal, I just think the vast, vast majority of dudes were juicing, & that the notion of an 'uneven playing field' is basically a myth.