Rickey Henderson and Jim Rice elected to the HoF

[3Putt]

I like both Blyleven & Morris. Morris didn't look overpowering but found a way to get the "W". His record was actually better than Blylevens (Morris 254-186 vs Blyleven 287-250) even though his ERA was higher (3.9 vs 3.3). Both deserve to go.

[BrewCrewForever]

How about those votes for Jay Bell and Matt Williams. What a joke.

[Invader3K]

One thing...I know I brought this up in another thread, but I don't get why Dave Parker generates virtually no discussion. I know he had a "gap" of under performance in the middle of his career, but I would think the case of Jim Rice being a "feared hitter" and getting in should make the case for Parker even stronger. He was certainly one of the most feared and respected hitters in the game during much of the 70s and 80s.

[Tbadder]

Every year I become more and more frustrated with the HOF. It really should be renamed: The Hall of Good Players who play in Large Markets and Bandboxes. Jim Rice? Geez...doesn't this sport have any self-respect.

[RockCoCougars]

Ah, the yearly HOF debate. I'll condense my take this year. Rice probably shouldn't be a HOF because he didn't do much after 1984....Blyleven doesn't quite make the grade because he was a stat compiler because he started his career so young...great curveball, but he was never one of the top ten pitchers in the game at any time......Raines is popular among the young set (good stat ratios and the like), partially because they don't remember his career.....good, but never HOF worthy.....Murphy just fell apart too soon another two solid years and he would be in.....Kaat, Tommy John, don't make me laugh.....Thank god this is a Brewer site and I don't have to hear people whine about Ron Santo.....Dawson and Jack Morris should be in....another guy who should be in who is not on the ballot is Dick Allen, who was much better than both Tony Perez and Orlando Cepeda.

[pitchleague]

I think this is the third time in three years I have typed this more-or-less exact paragraph. I should probably make a copy and put it in "My Documents" to recycle every year.

 

Every year, a player is bound to get what is called a "courtesy vote" for the Hall of Fame. This courtesy vote is pretty much an "agreement" by a writer or broadcaster who got to be pretty good friends with a player over the years. When the player then retired, the two of them, knowing full well that the player was not Hall of Fame material but only Hall of Very Good Material, came to an agreement that the writer/broadcaster friend of his would cast a vote for the player so he'd be able to tell his grandchildren that yes, he was given a vote for the Baseball Hall of Fame. It happens all time. In fact, I could probably come to a pretty good guess of who voted for Jay Bell.

 

Luckily, the voters in these cases do their homework now so they don't have a repeat of the Wes Ferrell induction of 1984. It was through the veteran's committee vote, but it still worked out in exactly the same way. Here's the story in case you don't know it:

 

 

"Rick Ferrell was a pretty good catcher form 1929 through 1947, a pretty good farm system director and general manager for Detroit, and, by all accounts, a pretty good guy. Rick played eighteen years (admittedly in eight of these he didn't catch 100 games in a season). He hit .281 lifetime, with twenty-eight career homers. His brother Wes had hit .280 lifetime, with twenty-eight homer. Of course, Wes was a pitcher. While he was still eligible in the writers' balloting, Rick got one vote in 1956, another in 1958, and a third in 1960. For years, reporters covering the Committee on Veterans would tell tales of how its memeber, old sportswriters, players, and executives, would cast 'courtesy votes' for old buddies, knowing full well that these guys would never actually get elected. It was a nice, folksy touch. You know: Hey, Smiley, you didn't get in, but look, I voted for you, old pal, old sport. Everybody was happy but nobody got hurt. Then in 1984, it happened. Apparently everyone case a courtesy vote for Rick Ferrell. Bingo--he's a Hall of Famer."

 

--from The Big Show. Olbermann and Patrick, 1997.

 

In sum, my feelings on the whole vote were, good for Rickey and Rice. Boo for Blyleven getting the shaft--again. And no big deal for the Jay Bells and Jesse Oroscos of the world getting a few courtesy votes.

[apirk]

Blyleven doesn't quite make the grade because he was a stat compiler because he started his career so young...great curveball, but he was never one of the top ten pitchers in the game at any time.

completely agree

 

Blylevan compiled solid numbers because he played 22 years, if there was a hall of longevity he'd be in. Also, I know most people don't think All star games mean anything but Blylevan was picked 2 times to pitch in the all star game by coaches and his peers. To me that says he was not a dominant pitcher in his time. Sure he was a good pitcher for a long time but not a Hall of Famer in my opinion.

[StearnsFTW]

Whoever voted for Jesse Orosco deserves to lose their voting privileges.

 

Whoever didn't vote for Rickey (and there's a lot of them) should too.

 

Ridiculously dominant player in his prime.

[JimH5]

While the Orosco pick is a joke, he does have the record of most career pitching appearances, so it's not like voting for Dave LaPoint. Anyway, there's always a guy or two who gets a courtesy vote from a writer as a gesture of goodwill for being a standup guy.

 

I guess Rice is okay. He's not the worst Hall of Famer. I just don't see the love for Andre Dawson. Maybe that's my Cub hatred in me.

 

And Blyleven should definitely be there.

[PeaveyFury]

Whoever didn't vote for Rickey (and there's a lot of them) should too.

 

Yeah, while votes for the likes of Bell look goofy, the bigger problem here is that 5% of the voters somehow didn't think Henderson was deserving, which is completely mind-boggling.

[dlk9s]

Whoever didn't vote for Rickey (and there's a lot of them) should too.

 

Yeah, while votes for the likes of Bell look goofy, the bigger problem here is that 5% of the voters somehow didn't think Henderson was deserving, which is completely mind-boggling.

This.

 

I don't mind the courtesy votes for an obvious non-HOF'er. It's the lack of votes for a no-brainer that are stupid.

[pitchleague]

It's because some voters think that their very strange philosophy that "no player will receive 100% of votes" is correct. It's the only reason that I can think of. Well, maybe the "not on the first ballot" thinking that is out there, too.

 

I find it strange but who cares? There's a minority in everything--somebody trying to take a stand, etc. Rickey's still in and in a few years nobody is going to care what percentage of votes he got in by. It's not like they put it on the plaques or anything.

[hawing]

I got a facebook message this afternoon from a friend saying, "I see an ex-Brewer got one vote"...and I admit, at first I thought someone had stepped up for Dan Plesac. I'd completely forgotten that Jesse Orosco was on the ballot until I checked this evening. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/eyes.gif Sorry, Jesse.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Yeah, I'm sorry, but the "I didn't vote for the obvious Hall of Famer because no one should get 100%" voters should be stripped of priviledge. Either someone deserved in, or they did not. The way this whole thing is done is a complete crock of horse poo, and it becomes less and less meaningful the more of the nonsense these writers spew as justification for and against why they voted.

[jaybird2001wi]

I would love to see Lou Brock's face as he is sitting behind Rickey Henderson during the speech. Does anyone believe Brock will start muttering, "I hate this guy?!"

But Hall of Fame voters tend to vote very weird at times. Willie Mays wasn't a unanimous selection when he was inducted. There are also most of the voters who believe players are Hall of Famers, but not first-ballot, so they basically let those players sit on the ballot for a number of years (see: Ryne Sandberg).

I think Andre Dawson will get in eventually, but he will probably be one of those guys who gets in on his last year of eligibility. Tim Raines will get in most likely when the ballot becomes less and less prevalent. But then again, some of the guys I saw that will appear in the 2010 ballot will be hard not to vote in.

 

By the way this plaque is hilarious

http://www.espn.go.com/photo/2008/0112/pg2_henderson2.gif

 

 

[LouisEly]

I think Dawson deserves it more than Rice. I wanted Rickey to be the only one to get in this year. To have the whole ceremony dedicated to him followed by a two hour, unedited speech by Rickey would have been the greatest!

 

1) If Rice is in, then Dawson should be in. Flip-flop their careers and have Rice play for Montreal and have Dawson play pepper with the Green Monster. Who would be where right now? 'Nuff said.

 

B) I think the sole reason that Rice got over the hump was so that Rickey wouldn't have the ceremony all to himself. They didn't want to make the ceremony a complete circus.

 

3) Tim Raines was as big of a juicer as McGwire or anyone else. Just look at any baseball card of his after the age of 31. Hmmm... Mr. Raines, how did your SLG steadily decline from 1988 to 1991, then suddenly jump from .345 (yes, that is SLG) in 1991 to .405 in 1992 (at the age of 32) to .480 in 1993 (at the age of 33) and stay over .400 through the age of 37? How did you get the nickname "Rock" after the age of 31? And even if he wasn't juicing, which is a smaller chance than that of that asteriod hitting the Earth in 2029, I am not deceived by the number of walks and strikeouts that a guy 5'8" who crouches down in his batting stance gets.

 

Sorry, but if McGwire only gets 23% of the vote, then Raines shouldn't get any more than that.

[endaround]

Gwynn's power jumped in 1993, you throwing him out of the hall? Expansion in the 90s most likely had a bigger effect on power than did steroids.

[Fatter than Joey]

B) I think the sole reason that Rice got over the hump was so that Rickey wouldn't have the ceremony all to himself. They didn't want to make the ceremony a complete circus.

 

Joe Gordon will be inducted as well.

[Invader3K]

3) Tim Raines was as big of a juicer as McGwire or anyone else. Just look at any baseball card of his after the age of 31. Hmmm... Mr. Raines, how did your SLG steadily decline from 1988 to 1991, then suddenly jump from .345 (yes, that is SLG) in 1991 to .405 in 1992 (at the age of 32) to .480 in 1993 (at the age of 33) and stay over .400 through the age of 37? How did you get the nickname "Rock" after the age of 31? And even if he wasn't juicing, which is a smaller chance than that of that asteriod hitting the Earth in 2029, I am not deceived by the number of walks and strikeouts that a guy 5'8" who crouches down in his batting stance gets.

 

Sorry, but if McGwire only gets 23% of the vote, then Raines shouldn't get any more than that.

I'm also sorry, but I get really sick of the unsubstantiated accusations of steroid use pointed at various guys. Maybe Raines did use the juice, but no one has really ever mentioned that before. Also, I'm pretty sure Raines was known as "Rock" well before that.

 

At least this isn't as dumb as some of the stuff on Haudricourt's blog, where someone recently insinuated that Mickey Mantle and Roger Maris both probably used steroids.

[TooLiveBrew]

FWIW, Rickey was obvious - I would not have voted for Jim Rice.

 

This is the way I feel. Rice getting in is another notch in the 'Hall of Very Good' imo.

[kramnoj]

LouisEly, you should have looked at Raines whole career. Raines slugged .475 and .476 at the ages of 25 and 26 (he slugged .526 in 87, but there was a power spike that year). As far as the jump that you describe from 91 to 92, a chunk of that was actually from a return to normalcy for his batting average. His ISO did increase, but some of that 60 points of slugging is just increasing the batting average. The question shouldn't be why his slugging went over .400, it was why it dipped below it. It's irresponsible of you to accuse someone of doing steroids based on your ignorance of their career.

 

I am not deceived by the number of walks and strikeouts that a guy 5'8" who crouches down in his batting stance gets.

 

As for this, if it was truly this easy, scouts should be recruting guys 5'8" and under and have them do this, because that would be quite valuable.

[StearnsFTW]

When do you suppose the next time we'll see a 21 year old in his first full season sport a .420 OBP?

 

His baseball reference page just cracks me up.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/henderi01.shtml

 

Edit: couple of other things that are hilarious to me: 1. A 127 OPS+ at age 40. 2. In 1988 he went 93 for 106 stealing bases. So........you know he's going every time, you just can't stop it.

[LouisEly]

LouisEly, you should have looked at Raines whole career.

 

I'm 35 going on 36 - I watched his whole career.

 

It's irresponsible of you to accuse someone of doing steroids based on your ignorance of their career.

 

Nice choice of words. Real classy.

 

I could have said it was irresponsible of you to be ignorant of what I posted, but that's not how we should conduct ourselves here. The fact that he slugged what he did at the ages of 25-27 does not surprise me at all - people generally reach their physical peak around the age of 27. What I posted was how do you explain five consecutive years of declining slugging %, followed by an increase in slugging % after the age of 31? Five consecutive years of declining slugging percentage is not an abberation, that is a trend. No it wasn't due just to batting average - after hitting 9, 9, then five home runs in 1991 in over 700 plate appearances that year, he then hit 7 in 1992 then 16 in 1993, second highest in his career in less than 500 plate appearances, and had double digits in home runs for three years in a row plus 9 home runs in only 201 ABs at the age of 36. That's looking at his whole career m'friend.

 

Could someone with a baseball card collection please post an image of him circa 1992-1994? I had one once, and I remember very vividly at the time that he looked almost as bad as Sammy Sosa circa 1999.

 

Raines is popular among the young set (good stat ratios and the like), partially because they don't remember his career

 

Well said.

 

Don't get me wrong - Raines was a very good player. But this is the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of the Very Good.

[kramnoj]

LouisEly, ignorance has different connotations. That you chose to compare Raines to McGwire rather than Henderson and that you think that his patience had more to do with his height and crouch didn't show that you had any appreciation for Raines. There is nothing in your first post that indicates you think Raines was good, let alone very good.

 

As for the shape of Raines career versus others, I think you are making some wrong assumptions. It's not unusual for players to develop power in their 30s. Hank Aaron had his highest ISOs in his late 30s. Are you going to accuse him of steroids?

 

What I posted was how do you explain five consecutive years of declining slugging %, followed by an increase in slugging % after the age of 31?

 

Which 5 years are you talking about? Are you talking about the 4 years from 88-91? We need to look at some context here. 87 was a power spike year. We should't use that year as the baseline for anything. Raines ISO in 88 was higher than it was in 86. Really, I think it's much more fair to say that Raines power dropped 3 consecutive years

 

No it wasn't due just to batting average

 

Who said it was just due to his batting average? I said that was responsible for a chunk of it. For example, compare 89 to 83 and 84. If you just look at slugging and think that slugging = power, you will think that Raines hit for less power in 89. But Raines ISO was the same or higher in 89 to those years. His slugging is lower because his batting average was lower in 89. This is the 2nd year of 4 years of decline that you are using as your proof that Raines did steriods.

 

As for other reasons why his slugging was lower in those years, look at his games played during those years. Raines played only 130 games in 90. Players usually miss games when injured, so I am going to guess that in the games that Raines did play, he may not have been 100% healthy. If someone is injured, their power can suffer. Look for example at Braun last year. His oblique was hurt, but he kept playing and it sapped his power.

 

So you believe Raines was on steriods because you think his slugging dropped 5 consecutive years, but the largest stretch is only 4 years ( I say 3), and you are doing so because you are equating slugging to power, without adjusting for the batting average component that slugging has and you aren't accounting for the fact that Raines was probably injured in one of those years and what impact that may have had.

 

You can make the case that Raines was just very good instead of HoF. I don't see any reason to say that he was on steroids, and to accuse someone of that so irresponsibly is something I find disgusting.

[Fatter than Joey]

This is Raines' Rookie Card --

 

http://www.mybaseballcardcollection.com/d/3681-2/1981+Topps+Traded+Tim+Raines+%23816.JPG

 

Seems like he has pretty good pipes.

 

Here is one in his later years...

 

http://www.checkoutmycards.com/CardImages/Cards/004/796/02F.jpg

 

and here is a recent shot

 

http://www.boreme.com/media/yr2004/i-body-builder.jpg