Time to get serious and trade Hart for pitching

[joepepsi]

Interesting idea. I don't know the Rays players you mention very well. Seems to me the Brewers would be getting the worse end of the deal, if only slightly.

[MNBrew]

No thanks on Perez. He's a younger version of Cameron w/ 4 exceptions: higher BA (and therefore OBP), much less power, he's a switch hitter, and mostly unproven at the big-league level. He's a speedy, defensively solid AAA OF who strikes out a ton. Yuck.

 

No doubt Hart regressed the last 2 months of '08. But he's a solid, 5-tool, team-first, All-Star RF. Moving him would amount to trading one of our top 4 offensive players, let alone doing so for less than optimal value. Melvin is usually quite good about not "selling low." Including an A-level catching prospect (esp. the highly-plus bat of Salome) would only compound the risk of the deal proposed above, and would amount to a huge potential fleecing by Tampa (not of Tampa). I really think Melvin wouldn't -- and shouldn't -- trade Hart or make this deal.

 

I'd much rather see the Brewers explore the Cameron/Yankees trade and sign Ken Griffey to a slightly lower, one-year, Kendall-type (2nd yr. vesting option) contract. That move plus dumping Suppan and paying up to half his contract would allow the Brewers to make a hard push for Smoltz (please yes!) or Sheets, plus Fuentes, all of which would help negate the losses this winter and still stand to put them in a good position to contend in '09.

[CWSOmaha]

I guess I wouldn't mind trading Hart but I'd like it better if we'd trade Fielder.

 

Prince scares me with his ever expanding waistline, attitude, and lack of defense. To me he's a prototype DH. Whoever would get him would have him for 2 more years(I think) before losing him. I would think he would bring more back in a trade because of that, as opposed to trading him right before he becomes a FA. He's coming off a pretty good year(even though it was down from 2007) and he does have some good trade value... a lot more value than Weeks or Hart at this point.

 

I know this isn't an option for 2009 but moving Hart back to 1B would be something I'd like to see. That was his original position and he has a lot of experience there. He can't be as bad as a butcher at 1B as Prince is.

 

So far this off-season has been very disappointing.

[twobrewers]

He can't be as bad as a butcher at 1B as Prince is.

If the Brewers place a sub-.300 OBP at first base I will cry.

 

I am pretty sure Hart would have negative value as a 1B. Hart would likely be a better offensive player - but Prince is twice the offensive force.

[brewjihad]

The Rays are really only looking at Burrell as a DH, they're also looking at Dunn and Giambi. They acquired Matt Joyce from the Tigers to play right field. It's an interesting proposal, but I doubt they'd want Hart to DH.

[logan82]

I am pretty sure Hart would have negative value as a 1B. Hart would likely be a better defensive player - but Prince is twice the offensive force.

 

The difference in offense is likely between 1 - 2.5 wins from Fielder to Hart. As long as Hart is average defensively at 1B he would make up much of that with his glove. Fielder is complete garbage with the glove and that doesn't even count how bad he makes his fellow infielders look. With a good defensive infield Fielder might be ok, but he is just an anchor on defense.

 

That said I wouldn't trade either one. We would be trading Hart after a bad year. Fielder is our only left handed bat and we don't have a good replacement for either Hart or Fielder.

[silversurferr]

Hart will have a huge year in 2009. Especially if we trade him...

[DHonks]

I'd rather trade Fielder for pitching, platoon Hart and Nelson at 1b (not a strict platoon), and sign Dunn for the OF

[MNBrew]

THIS is the link from a Seattle writer that talked again in pretty good detail about how the Brewers' & Mariners' needs & strengths match up pretty well. He talks about Fielder to Seattle and the Brewers being definitely interested in Morrow and other pitchers. Even though it'd throw any remaining R/L balance out the window, to me it's worth considering.

 

If the Crew were to make some other moves (trading Cameron & signing Griffey or Abreu; plus some pitching moves like trading Suppan, signing Sheets or Smoltz, signing Fuentes or another proven closer), the Crew could field something like this:

 

OF: Braun, Hart, Griffey/Abreu

IF: Hardy (3B - or Hart/Lamb, which excites me less), Escobar (SS - or Hardy), Weeks, & Gamel/Nelson (1B)

C: Kendall

 

Offhand I'm not totally sure if there's a net gain in OPS or runs scored, but it does change the makeup, should keep things quite competitive, and also net us a much deeper & improved pitching situation (not necessarily from the '08 season but at least from the immediate status quo).

 

Getting back to the thread topic, I'm getting redundant but at least with a few different ideas: Keep Hart & look for ways to move other pieces around to make an overall improvement in the team.

[jhpc12]

Again trading Corey is a very very bad idea. Just check his track record. Even as far back as Ogden after he struggles he always comes back even stronger.

 

He has proved it over and over again, and until he proves he can't I think it is a mistake to trade him.

 

I almost gaurantee if he does get traded he will bounce back and put up the line everyone is custom to seeing from him. the only problem is it would be for someone else.

[rudimen19]

As frustrating as watching his at bats last September were moving Hart now would be a significant mistake. He's a numbers guy and provided he finds a clue at the plate, he'll regain form and add value later. I don't want Hart in a long-term deal ever, but he is still under our control for a few more years so use him as a piece when we are looking to make a run in 2010 or 2011. What this team needs is balance and I think that is found in Abreu. Granted he's old and past his prime, but the dude saw 4.29 pitches/ab (3rd in MLB), which almost has me salivating it looks so good. If we can still move Cameron free up that money and give Abreu 2/$26 with a vesting option for a third year he might be ours with the outfield market as deep as it is. I don't like Hart in center and looking at our pitching staff it's likely we need to field the best defense we can provide, but I can't help but covet the left-handed patient hitter which this team so desperately needed last year.

[fleehaw]

By no means was I saying, 'Hart must be traded.' But if the above deal was proposed, I'd jump at it. Niemann would likely be the 3rd best pitcher in the Brewers rotation whereas he's blocked from the Rays rotation. Perez, while an OPS downgrade from Hart, would be better defensively. Moreover, an OPS in the 775-800 range certainly seems plausible for him. In addition, Perez and Niemann would be under control for 6 years as opposed to only 3 for Hart.

 

It would be filling a huge need while not creating another hole in the roster.

 

I doubt Hart goes anywhere this offseason, but we have time to pass until spring training starts. 99.999% of these proposals never come close to happening so all I'm really interested in is if it's fair value and makes some sense for the team.

[Invader3K]

I too, would rather hang onto Hart right now. I think the only scenario where trading Hart makes sense is where the Brewers maybe sign someone like Adam Dunn, and they just have to make room in outfield.

 

I think half of these ideas are just coming from the fact that the Brewers acquisition rumors have come to a complete standstill, which is rather frustrating as a fan.

[Ennder]

Griffey is a downgrade from Hart so I sure hope they don't go that path.

[MNBrew]

My point on Griffey was as a replacement for Cameron. I would not at all advocate replacing Hart with Griffey.

[logan82]

My point on Griffey was as a replacement for Cameron. I would not at all advocate replacing Hart with Griffey.

Even worse. Cameron was better than Hart last year. Hart is probably expected to be better on offense than Cameron next year. Including defense, Cameron probably will have more value than Hart next year.

[snyttri]

Griffey Jr. seems to be only a part-time player player and celebrity at this point. He couldn't hold a regular outfield job when the White Sox had two openings after Carlos Quentin got hurt. He did come through for them at some key times, though.

[Invader3K]

Yeah, assuming he doesn't retire, I would assume Griffey would be best suited going to an AL team on a one year deal where he can DH a lot.

[endaround]

Griffey is a 4th OFer at best. His bat is margainal and he can't play defense. He'll likely go to the Marniers if he can't get to a playoff caliber team for a reunion tour.

[MNBrew]

I'm not suggesting Griffey is necessarily a much better player than Cameron. He has his plusses, too, though. Last year he hit 18 HRs & 71 RBIs in 490 ABs. While that's not All-Star material, that's also not 4th OF material. He bats lefty, strikes out about 40% less than Cameron, walks more, and has a better OBP. Their OPS difference was only about 20 pts. in Cameron's favor -- not a huge difference. Neither guy is a long-term solution.

 

My point is this: If DM is looking to alter some of the makeup/profile of the club given its well-documented shortcomings (overly righty, low OBP, high Ks) and without screwing up its long-term plan, trading Cameron and signing Griffey could be a decent way to accomplish that and possibly free up a small bit of payroll space in doing so.

[TooLiveBrew]

But Griffey is a liability in the OF at this point, and we couldn't hide him as a platoon DH like an AL team could. He would have negative value when compared with Cameron.

[reillymcshane]

I think the only thing I'd like Griffey for would be a lefthander 1B. He'd get 3/4 of the ABs - and he still hits righties pretty well - .841 OPS last year, .886 over the past three years. He should never bat against lefties - he has a sub .700 OPS vs them over the past three years. I assume he'd be an okay 1B, and if the team dealt Fielder for pitching, and the team didn't trust Nelson as a platoon bat, then he'd be an option for the Crew. Of course, you'd need a right handed platoon partner.

 

Like people said, he's pretty bad in the field now. I'd only stick him at 1B - or DH for an AL team.

[bando1234]

I would like to try to lock Hart up to a multi year contract right now. I could be wrong but both Hart & Braun had over 100 at bats from the previous season. I think thats why they both hit a wall in September.

[silversurferr]

I agree; Unless the plan is to put Gamel in RF (or LF and move Braun to RF), I think Dougie should attempt to extend Hart. By all accounts, good guy, teammate and upside.

[3Putt]

Griffey's bat is slowing down every year. He reminds me of Yount or Aaron late in their careers. That's fine if you want to sell a few tickets but not so good if you want to win. I'd prefer to fill in gaps by trading Fielder to an AL Club. If Escobar is ready then move Hardy to 3B. An infield without Hall & Fielder should yield us 5 to 10 wins from improved defense alone.