Catcher Discussion

[Mass Haas]

Since we don't seem to have a specific farmhand catcher thread, here's a link to a Baseball America post that discusses the SB / CS defensive aspect of many, including Jonathan Lucroy and Angel Salome. Lucroy's work in this regard was just insane last season.

[Herm]

Interesting perspective. Lucroy is 2nd of 55 catcher prospects in CS %, while Salome is 46th. Lucroy mentioned with "The Good" (primarily crediting his quick release) and Salome with "The Bad" (where he's described has having the tools including a strong arm but struggles with accuracy and release). The good news for Salome is that his 26% rate is a big improvement over the previous year, so perhaps that's indiciative of ongoing improvement.

[wvpowerblkwel]

I think both of these guys can be really something special, that being said, I'm sure with Lawrie added to the mix, someone will be trade fodder someday. As far as Angel's skills go, I think you still have to remember that he was coming off what was a pretty horrific ankle injury, especially given his position last year, so I would think his numbers continue to improve. He does have a cannon of an arm!

[Brian the Automator]

I think both of these guys can be really something special, that being said, I'm sure with Lawrie added to the mix, someone will be trade fodder someday. As far as Angel's skills go, I think you still have to remember that he was coming off what was a pretty horrific ankle injury, especially given his position last year, so I would think his numbers continue to improve. He does have a cannon of an arm!

That sort of begs the question about position-shifting... There was already talk about when Lawrie being drafted whether he would stick at catcher or not. And given that it seems that Angel's plus defensive tool is his arm, would it maybe make sense (if Lucroy passes him up) to think about a shift to 3B or RF? Obviously, if they can stick at catcher, their best position might be trade-bait, but there's other options to consider.

[colbyjack]

I have really enjoyed the work of Ben Badler at Baseball America. He has been a nice addition to their team. Last year's breakdown of the top catchers was a good read, and he continued to push the idea this year. He also did a really fine breakdown of all of the team's international signings, as it isn't easy getting information on those players.

 

While Salome was among the worst, as noted, he did significantly improve from 2007 to 2008. I'm more concerned by how close he is to the big-leagues, since he clearly needs more time to develop his defensive skills, and I hope the team is patient with his development there even if he makes it hard for them not to call him up with a strong year at the plate. Catcher is not a position I like sacrificing defense for offense at.

 

Like others, I too would like to see Lawrie moved to a position that suits him best. Maybe that is behind the plate, but as we've talked about before, he could fly through the system, at least as fast as his bat would carry him, at 3B or even the OF as Brian mentioned. It's a nice problem to have.

[homer]

In case anyone cares, Eric Fryer was 11 for 58.

[nate82]

That sort of begs the question about position-shifting... There was already talk about when Lawrie being drafted whether he would stick at catcher or not. And given that it seems that Angel's plus defensive tool is his arm, would it maybe make sense (if Lucroy passes him up) to think about a shift to 3B or RF? Obviously, if they can stick at catcher, their best position might be trade-bait, but there's other options to consider.

But here is the problem if Salome doesn't stick at catcher he is nearly useless to the Brewers since there is no DH in the National League. I believe Salome's bat is about ready to play but yet his defense is lacking especially his positioning behind home plate. Maybe Money can help him with that. It looks as though he did help him with that last year in AA.

 

I love Salome's bat and what he could bring to the Brewers but I'm not sure he is going to be a good defensive catcher.

[Tbadder]

That's another reason to look at him at third base. How's his quickness? His lateral motion? I really think the greater need is at third.

[JJHardy7]

That's another reason to look at him at third base. How's his quickness? His lateral motion? I really think the greater need is at third.

 

I've only seen him play catcher (obviously), but everything I've heard and read indicates he really can only be a catcher. His bat I think will be a very high quality, but if he doesn't work at catcher I have a feeling he'll be dealt. His somewhat small stature (in terms of height) limits where he can play. I think he'll end up being at least an average defensive catcher, but that doesn't mean it will be with the Brewers given the apparent talent they have at the position. I really like Salome and hope he continues to improve in Nashville next year. I think the 'plan' is to have him in Milwaukee opening day 2010, but we'll have to see what type of progress he makes.

[JohnBriggs12]

That's another reason to look at him at third base. How's his quickness? His lateral motion? I really think the greater need is at third.

What need? Two of the top 5 prospects in the organization play 3rd (Gamel, Green) and 2 guys are coming off very solid if unspecatular AAA seasons (McGehee and Heether). I don't see a reason for moving him to 3rd. If he can't catch, someone will want his bat. With Lucroy right behind him, he could end up more valuable in a deal.

[endaround]

I think people are getting confused between Salome and Lawrie in this thread.

[sbrylski]

I sure hope that the Brewers are just going to experiment with Lawrie at catcher with the slight chance he turns out to be a natural. Give him a year to try it, it wouldn't hurt.

 

But it does seem like the Brewers a playing a couple people out of position. Gamel to RF, Green back to 2B*, and Lawrie at 3B seems to make much more sense than their current positions. It still leaves Salome and Lucroy at catcher, obviously.

 

(*provided he wasn't moved for lack of talent at 2B, which I don't believe was the case.)

[jjfanec]

I think people are getting confused between Salome and Lawrie in this thread.

I think people are wondering if there is any way Salome could stick somewhere else. People know Lawrie could stick somewhere else.

 

I have always like Lucroy as our future catcher and have thought trading Salome when his value is high is a great idea. He has questions about his defense but an AL team would be excited to get him because even if he does not stick to catcher his bat will play. I agree with the idea to give Lawrie a year at catcher and if that does not seem to work put at third or somehwere else.

 

 

[Tbadder]

Gamel is not a 3rd baseman in my book. In the Brewers book he is, and that's all that counts, but I'm very, very leery. And if I was a betting man I'd say he'll probably be the worst major league third baseman in terms of defense. Again, something the Brewers simply can't afford with the price of pitching nowadays. Hope I'm wrong, hope he works outs the bugs, he's improved some for sure, but he's still rather poor.

 

Green might be the answer, and we'll know a lot better after a full year in AA. But until then I'd rather not count on him, though in truth he may be the only real alternative. If he is real then by all means keep Angel at catcher or jettison via trade.

[ILuvDaBush]

Gamel is David Wright. Green is David Murphy. Who is playing 3B for the Mets in 2009? As for the catcher discussion, I think Salome has done enough to warrant at least a token call-up to the big league club and a few innings of catching the big league guys before being completely written off. Lucroy is the guy who will probably feel the squeeze, as I continue to hope we trade him at his most valuable. And Lawrie, if he can stick at catcher, will be an annual Gold Glove candidate, simply because of his stick (aka, Geo "Metro" Soto).

[Never Outhustled]

One of the main reasons Salome struggles behind the plate is he has stiff hands. Its a big part of him having so many passed balls, and it precludes him from playing an infield position.

 

 

Gamel is David Wright. Green is David Daniel Murphy.

I think it would be better to compare Gamel to 1 of the many 1Bs or corner OFs that were minor league 3Bs, like Mark Texeria, Carlos Lee, Albert Pujols, or Chris Davis. David Wright was never a terrible defensive 3B.

[JumpinMacFlash]

I don't know if this seems to out of the box or even solves any problems, but here it goes...

 

Salome is constantly compared to Pudge Rodriguez because of his position and frame. At one point, wasn't there talk of Pudge playing second to prolong his career? Is Salome athletic enough to do the same thing if it turns out he can't hack it at catcher. If he could, wouldn't his offensive potential make him valuable as a second baseman? If that were the case, LuCroy could stick at catcher, Gamel could slide in at first or RF, Lawrie could play third. That would leave Green as the odd man out, but one of Lawrie could probably also play in the outfield.

 

I don't like the idea of constantly moving guys to new positions, but as long as we were playing around...

[TheCrew07]

Something coach said about Salome has been bothering me for a while... he mentioned Angel's 60 time and it was significantly faster than what we've seen reported recently in the press. If his injury took 25-30 points of speed from him (scouting scale), I don't see him being able to play adequately anywhere on the infield. If he didn't lose his speed or quickness, why so many passed balls and stolen bases? X mentioned his hands, I don't know anything about that but to me Angel is a catcher or DH based on what we know. His bat will play, I have no doubt in that, I just don't know about his defense, or a position change for him.

 

Fryer doesn't seem like he'll be a MLB catcher, but he had a real nice year at the plate and I find him intriguing.

 

Lucroy is the C I feel best about... solid at the plate and solid defensively, he's a guy who's easy to like because he does pretty much everything at an average level or better. Maybe he could make the move to a corner IF or OF spot if Lawrie or Salome would be become the everyday C.

 

Lawrie... I'd rather he move to 3B and start in Appleton since Trejo will probably go back to Helena given his ACL injury and so few ABs. His bat will likely carry him faster than a defensive progression at C would allow, and if both Salome and Lucroy make it through the off season in the organization, I'd hope he'd start next year someplace other than catcher.

 

Either Salome or Lucroy will be a huge offensive upgrade over Kendell, so I'm comfortable with the offensive promise of the position. Defensively Salome worries me, even though he's one of my boys, however seems like Lucroy is more of a natural defender/game caller. Going into 2010 I'll feel very good about the position regardless of what happens, it will no longer be a black hole at the bottom of the lineup, and I'm curious to see how things shake out.

[DHonks]

Personally I want two good/solid catchers rather than 1. So trading Salome/Lucroy is foolish to me. I like the way the Dbacks have both Snyder and Montero, who are both very good defensively with some offensive upside.

[clancyphile]

Lawrie's bat is my big question. How good is it? How fast will he come up?

 

The Brewers need to figure out what the likely answer to these questions are, and take things from there.

 

Gamel, Green, and Salome were 1-2-3 in my top 20 list (yes, I will reveal that part of my vote now).

 

Salome could be moved to LF, the way the Brewers hid Dave Nilsson for a few years in the 1990s, but then, one of the better leadoff prospects in the Brewers system, Cole Gillespie, may have no place to play (he's mostly played LF in the system).

[Mass Haas]

The next portion of Baseball America's catcher analysis is available. You'll find Jonathan Lucroy (# 25) and Angel Salome (# 37) listed, but more interesting is the meat of the article itself.

[wvpowerblkwel]

Can somebody take me through the meaning of the line of stats? I guess I'm just learning the statistical art after really only following minor league ball for the last 3 or so years. More than anything, if anyone can compare and contrast the stat lines for Lucroy and Salome, it would help me greatly since this board rates Jonathan much higher than Angel defensively. Thanks for the "education"!

[Mass Haas]

Lucroy, Corporan, Maldonado to big league camp for spring training

[Mass Haas]

Link while active, text follows:

 

Umatilla's Jonathan Lucroy gets invitation to Brewers camp

Joe Williams, Orlando Sentinel Staff Writer

 

UMATILLA - Jonathan Lucroy's progress since he was picked in the third round of the 2007 baseball draft by the Milwaukee Brewers has been steady.

 

Now he will have the opportunity next month to attend spring training with the major-league club.

 

Lucroy, a catcher, received the invitation last week.

 

There are no grand expectations from Lucroy, 22, that he will catch on with the major-league club this year, but the excitement of being around big-leaguers will not be lost on him.

 

"I just want to be able to go in there and ask questions and learn," said Lucroy, a Umatilla graduate who played three years at Louisiana-Lafayette before being drafted. "I am going to be very open-minded and pick the brains of some of the older catchers and hitters. [i'll] get the information I can attain and try to use it.

 

"It is a great opportunity for me to go there and learn. I am pretty excited about it."

 

Lucroy has climbed through the minor-league ranks from his rookie-league season in Helena, Mont., in 2007 to splitting last season with the Brewers' low Class A team in West Virginia to their high Class A team, the Brevard County Manatees.

 

In 129 games last season, Lucroy hit .301 with 20 home runs, 50 extra-base hits and 77 RBIs. In 61 games with Helena in 2007, he hit .342, with four home runs, 24 extra-base hits and 39 RBIs.

 

He was one of three catchers, and 12 players total, to receive special invitations to the Brewers camp. They are not part of the Brewers' 40-man roster.

 

Other catchers invited are Carlos Corporan and Martin Maldonado. They will join the Brewers' four other catchers on the 40-man roster, including Jason Kendall.

 

It is not unusual for teams to bring in extra catchers early in spring training to handle all of the work the pitchers have to get in. Brewers pitchers and catchers are scheduled to report to Phoenix, Ariz., on Feb. 13.

 

"I fully realize I am not going to be in the big leagues [this year]," Lucroy said. "I am going in there probably as the fifth catcher. I know I am going there to be an extra guy to catch in the bullpen, but I am going to be catching big-league pitchers.

 

"I fully realize that I am not going to the big leagues this year or maybe even next year, but it is good experience. I will get better from it."

 

He expects to spend this season with the Brewers' Class AA team in Huntsville, Ala., but as Lucroy said, that is not guaranteed.

 

Since last baseball season ended, Lucroy returned to Louisiana-Lafayette and got one more semester of studying out of the way. He is one semester shy of finishing his degree in environmental science. He has been training at the All-Star Sports Academy in Paisley.

[Mass Haas]

MiLB.com's Lisa Winston with more on Angel Salome