Cameron for Melky Cabrera? Nick Swisher?

[Hammer]

Over/under for pages before the trade happens or is called off? My guess.........29. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[edod]

Either way, as I stated earlier, this should not even be in discussion. Cameron is fairly paid and is a much better player that Cabrera. When the Yankees are willing to admit this, Melvin should resume talks. As long as the Yankees are "demanding" salary retribution or picking up Igawa, Melvin should walk away and prepare to have Cameron in CF.

I couldn't agree with this more. What irks me is not that the Yanks just signed Sabathia or added to it with Burnett, it's that the Brewers know they are not really in it right now for next year and trading Cameron is sort of salary relief for them. The Yankees know this and are using this as leverage, but it's gone into the realm of non-sense by them trying to recoup salary for themselves with that leverage. They're the Yankees, the only way the imbalance of baseball ever makes sense, if at all, is if large-market teams provide salary relief to small market-teams in exchange for some value.

 

Lets just rephrase this whole thread. Cabera would almost certainly have been a 4th outfielder in 2009 due to his play in 2008. Cameron put up all-star and gold-glove numbers in 4/5ths of a year and would probably due somthing similar in 2009. Why would one team trade that for another teams 4th outfiidler unless it was for added value ala salary relief or prospects? The Brewers could trade Cameron in June as a 1/2 year rental for more, so why shouldn't they get more for a full year rental?

[PeaveyFury]

Mota is/was a bad pitcher.

 

Mota was above replacement level last year. Considering that the Mets were running guys out there last year that couldn't claim that. And I shudder to think who else the Brewers would have been forced to run out there if they didn't have Mota, especially early in the season when he was pitching well. You hated Mota from the second that trade was announced, FTJ. Can you honestly say you're looking at this without bias?

 

Exactly -- plus you don't need 71 innings to learn that Joe Winkelsas sucks -- especially at $4M/year

 

Yet again I'll mention that the reports of the Brewers acquiring Igawa have the Yankees picking up some of his salary- so it won't be at $4M/year.

 

And Winklesas didn't have the success in the Japanese leagues or at AAA that Igawa had.

 

If he's nothing more than a replacement-level player, imo there's just no need to spend as much money & commit as many years as the Crew would have to do.

 

We don't know how much money that the Brewers will have to spend. If we're on the hook for say 2 million/year, the story changes quite a bit.

[TooLiveBrew]

I'm not sure if it would in my book. It obviously is less money, and to the point where I probably wouldn't cringe. However, my main beef with this deal is getting a crappy return on Cameron. There is absolutely, positively no reason to make this deal right now. Cameron is worth more than two bits of chaff the Yanks (or any other team... just happens to be NYY here) don't want.

 

I know you're more playing devil's advocate here Peavey, so I don't want to really harp on you. I just don't see any reason under the sun why this deal would make sense for the Crew. The way I see it play out is that the Yankees would solve an immense need on their team, at a position where it's hard to find a solution as strong as Cameron. Meanwhile they'd part with two entirely spare parts, one of whom clears the requisite roster spot for Mike on the 25-man. There's just no lose for the Yanks to be found in there, and it would have a very real chance to go down as the biggest fleecing of Melvin as Brewers GM. The man just doesn't tend to get worked over like that, hence my skepticism on this trade going through as advertised.

[brewers4eric]

I believe that we could do better than Cabrera and Igawa for Cameron. Igawa reminds me too much of one of my least favorite Brewers of all time, Takahito Nomura. I don't think he ever threw two consecutive strikes during an appearance with the Brewers.

[piccione88]

From what I have seen it would not be just two players, it would be Cabrera, plus Igawa to allow us to get another prospect from the yankees. It is either Igawa or money, supposedly. There is always the possibility that Cashman is just trying to play hardball with Melvin. I really do not see any reason that Melvin should have to take on part of Igawa's contract, or pay Cashman money in order to get another prospect. That other prospect according to a report by the post will not be a pitcher on the 40 man.

 

Like others have said Melvin must have another deal lined up, or Antanasio must be imposing a stricter budget. Then again there is always the possibility that Melvin really likes Cabrera. Either way every day I am hoping more and more this deal does not get done.

[piccione88]

There is a report from yankees blog that says "there were reports that kei Igawa was involved but that may no longer be the case." I do not know anything about the guy that wrote it, but I hope that this is true. McCalvey says that the talks are at a stalemate which could validate the report about Igawa not being in the deal. Maybe Melvin came to his senses and told Cashman he will not give him salary relief in any form. I can only hope.

[BrewCrewForever]

If Cashman wants Cameron he needs to realize it will be straight up for Cabrera and we are not paying any of Cam's salary. I hope they get this deal done soon.

[TooLiveBrew]

I sure hope Melvin doesn't take Cabrera for Cameron.

 

 

There is a report from yankees blog that says "there were reports that kei Igawa was involved but that may no longer be the case." I do not know anything about the guy that wrote it, but I hope that this is true.

 

That's Peter Abraham's blog, and it's a very good source. Very much akin to TH for the Brewers. Abraham is like TH in his baseball 'knowledge' in many ways (you go there for the raw info, not his opinions), but the info he delivers is second to none when it comes to the Yanks. The gf is a lifelong diehard Yankees fan, and that's the first blog she checks for Yankees news/updates

[PeaveyFury]

I sure hope Melvin doesn't take Cabrera for Cameron.

 

I agree. I'd actually rather have Cabrera/Igawa at a reduced rate than just Cabrera, I think, if we're determined to make a deal for some reason. At least then you're getting something other than a clear one-for-one downgrade in center for 2009.

 

Fortunately it's looking less and less like we're determined to make a deal.

[fleehaw]

According to MLBTR, the Yankees are apparently backing away from any deal. They say for baseball reasons and not financial ones. Might be a ploy and it might not. Can't say that I'm disappointed.

[piccione88]

The article that you are talking about is from the new york times, and it made very little sense. According to the times they have a deal in place that is fair, but do not want to make the deal because Cameron would bat in the bottome third of the order, with Nick Swisher and together they would have over 300 strikeouts. The other reason the times says that the Yankees do not think the deal makes sense is because "teams that win tend to have players in their primes, not in decline." Cashman and company are much smarter than that, this smells like garbage fed to the times in order to get a better deal.

[MillerParkSouth]

I would not be disappointed if this is true. The Yankees need Cam more than we do. Worst case scenario we play the year with a gold glove CF. Fine with me.

[brewmann04]

hopefully this puts an end to this would be terrible trade. Kudos to doug .

[Cracked Bat Collector]

I hope this deal does not happen and if it does, it must include some form of Kennedy or Hughes imo.

[NOLABrew86]

I think that the Brewers are in good position in these negotiations right now. As poster earlier, the Yankees seem much more desperate in these dealings than we do (see Igawa, Kei/ asking us to take on part of Cam's salary ?!?). If no deal goes down, then we still have a Gold-Glove, potential 30 HR asset holding down CF for a year. If we do bring in Cabrera for Cameron straight up, then we save payroll, learn if Cabrera is a prospect, save money to improve the bullpen/rotation, and leave open the option of signing another outfielder such as a Baldelli type or if we wanted to have a ridiculous middle of the order Dunn/Burrell. Overall, more flexibility going forward gives us a chance to land another asset to build around, which makes sense for our club as it stands with our core being as young as it is. However, keeping Cameron wouldn't kill us long term either because his contract will end after next year. If he puts up a great year, which he could with the incentive of entering FA in 2010, we get his great year and a shot at draft picks if we don't sign him. I'm not sure about this last part, but if its a possibility, then maybe we should consider that as a potential reason to keep Killa Cam in Milwaukee for another year. Unless of course the Yankees decide that Cameron for Nady straight up is on the table, then I say go for it DM.

[Fatter than Joey]

You hated Mota from the second that trade was announced, FTJ. Can you honestly say you're looking at this without bias?

 

I hated Mota before the trade. He is a crappy pitcher.

[logan82]

Villanueva -0.36 WPA

Bush -1.00 WPA

Parra -.076 WPA

Suppan -1.34 WPA

Gagne -0.77 WPA

Torres 1.13 WPA

I hate using WPA because it is dependent on when a guy pitches. I think it is misleading. A couple blow up innings at the wrong time throw everything off.

[piccione88]

Ian Kennedy, and esspecially Phil Hughes is too much to ask in return for Cameron. Alot of people are still very high on Hughes, Bill James recently projected him to have an ERA of 3.35 next year. You can say that wont happen, and point to his durability concerns, but the fact is that he has the potential to be an absolute stud for years. Giving up the opportunity to have a cost controlled cy young candidate for a year of a good centerfielder is just not worth it. As far as Ian Kennedy is concerned he is still one of their top 10 prospects, and in the very near future could be a middle of the rotation quality pitcher.

 

Do not get me wrong, I do not think that Cabrera straight up for Cameron is a fair deal in any sense. I just think that you are setting yourself up for a huge letdown if you think the Brewers are going to get an MLB ready starting prospect back.

[Hate those Rodents]

I wonder if we sweetend the deal and threw in someone like Lucroy, if they'd be willing to give us Hughes?

[JJHardy7]

And I shudder to think who else the Brewers would have been forced to run out there if they didn't have Mota, especially early in the season when he was pitching well. You hated Mota from the second that trade was announced, FTJ. Can you honestly say you're looking at this without bias?

 

I agree PF. Mota was on fire at times last year and he wasn't terrible. He had some rough stretches, but given the lack of talent in most bullpens he has value. We gave up nothing to get him so I see it as a positive. If Mota avoided a few bad outings, we'd be talking about how much we need him back and not how he is a bad pitcher.

 

I'm growing more and more on the trading Cam idea. I don't know if him for Cabrera is fair, but again I trust that Doug isn't going to make a dumb move with Cam. I think Doug is going to hold out until the Yankees give up more. I could care less what is reported. We only have to look at the 'Yankees are pulling their offer on CC', 'Yankees have maxed their offer', etc and then CC's real deal to see what the Yankees will do. They'll give up more. Cabrera could be a nice addition and I think it's easy to forget how young he is. Cam is old and he WILL decline. The posts that ask how has he shown he's declining bring up a good point...but I'd also be even more interested to see some stats on guys Cam's age that have not declined. The logic behind the whole deal could be that we step back at CF this year, but hopefully in future years Cabrera is a nice cheap option in CF while Cam is retired in a maybe a year or two.

[colbyjack]

I liked Kei Igawa when he came to the states two years ago, and thought he would be a solid pickup for the Yankees. I agree with Peavey that he has had a limited time at the big-league level, but at the same time he's 29 years old, so the learning curve shouldn't be as great. I would give more credence to him struggling pitching in New York when expectations were already high than anything else.

 

And while he would provide nice insurance, assuming he opens '09 in Nashville, if the Yankees don't pick up a huge chunk of his salary, he would be an incredibly pricey pitch for depth. At least his stats at AAA are encouraging, as he has always had a knack for strikeouts.

 

As for Cabrera, I want to like the guy, and I recognize he had a really good year for a 22-year old, but his last two years have been pretty crummy, and there isn't really any part of his stats/trends that allow me to get excited (aside from his throwing arm in the OF, which isn't exactly the reason to acquire him when dealing a Gold Glove caliber CF away).

 

The salary relief part of the trade is still compelling if you still believe in Cabrera's upside, since the team obviously has to address their staff and apparently may not have the money currently to do so.

[DHonks]

With Igawa, I wonder if adjusting to the American baseball dimensions has affected him or taken time to adjust to. I often worry about guys adjusting to the MLB and NFL balls vs what they're used to, as there can be huge differences.

[fallingleaves]

Cameron is likely to be a B free agent, and we could probably retain him at less than ten mil in 2010, he was one of our better daily players last year.

 

Any trade with the Yankees is a downgrade over what Cam will give us next year.

[bjkrautk]

Cameron is likely to be a B free agent, and we could probably retain him at less than ten mil in 2010, he was one of our better daily players last year.

 

Any trade with the Yankees is a downgrade over what Cam will give us next year.

I don't think anyone believes otherwise; the question Doug Melvin is working on is whether Cabrera and an extra $7-10 million to spend on free agent(s) will provide an upgrade over Cameron.