Cameron for Melky Cabrera? Nick Swisher?

[fleehaw]

I know it was mentioned in previous pages, but according to MLBTR,the Brewers asked about Igawa instead of the Yanks trying to dump him on the Brewers.

Haudricourt said that they were talking about adding Hall to the deal, but the Yankees wanted the Brewers to take Igawa and pay some of Hall's salary so they said forget it and just took Hall out of the deal.

Again, that wasn't the point of the post. I'll go back and take it out.

The point of the post was that Igawa might actually have some value on the Brewers. Would I want him to be the 2nd player in the deal? No. However, the Yankees are looking for salary relief, so if they threw in Igawa with Cabrera and a 2nd player, plus picked up half of Igawa's salary, they'd net a savings of $6M. Igawa might be nothing more than a AAAA, but his sample size in the majors has been relatively small ~120IP compared with his track record in Japan and last year in AAA. At the very least he could be some AAA SP insurance. I'd see that as a potential win-win depending on the 2nd player/prospect in the deal.

[TooLiveBrew]

I really hope I'm wrong on this, and Cabrera proves himself to be better than I expect. I know he's young and I know he's got potential. However, that's what AAA is for, or what rebuilding teams build with. It shouldn't be what a playoff hopeful team starts everyday, especially when they trade a good player to get it. I was okay with this rumor when I thought Cabrera was the throw-in player in a deal for a starting pitcher. It scares me that Cabrera is the focal point of this trade.

 

Well-said, Monty. This would be the type of deal I'd be alright with if the Brewers were rebuilding & not expecting to be competitive in 2009. But giving up a good, valuable player to get a guy that hasn't been very impressive almost exclusively because 'he's young!' is not the right way for a team like the 2009 Brewers to do business.

[brains and braun]

If our deal for Cam doesn't involve Kennedy, count me out. He is what he is, but at least he's a cheap back of the rotation guy we could trot out there to eat some innings.

[trwi7]

The point of the post was that Igawa might actually have some value on the Brewers. Would I want him to be the 2nd player in the deal? No. However, the Yankees are looking for salary relief, so if they threw in Igawa with Cabrera and a 2nd player, plus picked up half of Igawa's salary, they'd net a savings of $6M. Igawa might be nothing more than a AAAA, but his sample size in the majors has been relatively small ~120IP compared with his track record in Japan and last year in AAA. At the very least he could be some AAA SP insurance. I'd see that as a potential win-win depending on the 2nd player/prospect in the deal.

So the Brewers get worse just to save $6 million this year? I would hate to have Igawa added, the guy just isn't very good. Let the Yankees keep that mistake.

[fondybrewfan]

So I thought we were suppose to hear something about this today since TH basically said it would probably get done today?

 

The suspense is killing me and I really hope we are getting something else out of this deal not named Igawa.

[JohnBriggs12]

.210/.285/.336 in 396 ABs.

 

Who's stats are those?

 

Mike Cameron's at age 25.

 

This is one deal (like most deals) where the jury is out until we actually see what happens.

[Chio151]

I will go out on a limb and say that Melky Cabrera will not only be better in 2009 than Mike Cameron, but be a valuable asset for the next 5-7 years.

 

I think Cameron is done. Do the deal.

[bklynbrewcrew]

I will go out on a limb and say that Melky Cabrera will not only be better in 2009 than Mike Cameron, but be a valuable asset for the next 5-7 years.

 

I think Cameron is done. Do the deal.

What exactly has cabrera ever shown that tells you he will be better than Cameron?

[TooLiveBrew]

Or what has Cameron shown that he "is done"?

 

 

EDIT: .210/.285/.336 in 396 ABs.

 

Who's stats are those?

 

Mike Cameron's at age 25.

 

But Cameron showed power in the minors. Plus...

 

Cameron by age (MLB)

24: .259/.356/.433/.789

25: .210/.285/.336/.621

26: .256/.357/.469/.826

 

Cabrera by age (MLB)

21: .280/.360/.391/.751

22: .273/.327/.391/.718

23: .249/.301/.341/.642

 

While I do understand that Cabrera was young for most if not all of his minor-league stops, I just don't think it's very reasonable to project that he all of a sudden develops the requisite power to not just be a slight improvement over TGJ.

[JJHardy7]

Or what has Cameron shown that he "is done"?

 

I don't think the poster is saying he's shown he's done. Age catches up to everyone in baseball and playing the OF is more difficult to hide when you're losing speed, etc. You really can only project to see if he's going to be done and the poster said 'I think'. Cabrera has a lot more time left in the game and hasn't even reached typical peak age. It's a guessing game, but Cameron is a lot closer to being done than Cabrera is. Again, I'll just use caution on this entire trade if it's ever official.

[bjkrautk]

JohnBriggs12, I'll see your Mike Cameron, and raise you an Alfonso Soriano

 

.268 / .304 / .432 as a 25 year-old rookie for the Yankees.

 

Cabrera doesn't turn 25 until the second half of 2009. If you project his 2008 numbers down (MLE Calculator), they'd be on-par with Alcides Escobar last season....and there's a contingency of Brewers fans clamoring for him to be in the majors. And that was in a down year.

 

Melky Cabrera already has over 1400 ABs in the majors, and is now at the age when a number of prospects are first cracking an everyday lineup. To use those ABs as though they represent his peak performance....just seems wrong to me.

 

Granted, his age is no guaranty that he'll improve over the next few years (see Weeks, Rickie) or that any improvement will be permanent (see Hall, Bill -- someone whose numbers take a huge upswing at age 25). His dip in walk rate over from year 1 to years 2 & 3 give me cause for concern. I still think there's at least a real chance of buying low on Cabrera.

 

There are 3 aspects to be taken into consideration for this trade (if it happens):

1) Does Cabrera improve, like you would expect out of a player in his age range?

2) Can Mike Cameron put up another season above his career .788 OPS....at age 36?

3) What does Milwaukee do with the cash savings?

 

Don't forget, when thinking about # 3, that the Brewers saved $0.75M by exercising the option on Cameron, instead of a buy-out. Assuming they trade Cameron, they're essentially free-rolling on the deal.

[TheCrew07]

I'm a trend guy, probably didn't need to say it since I do all the time, but TLB just nailed why I'm not of a fan of this deal. It's one thing to be inconsistent, it's another to trend so negatively that you've lost 100 points of OPS in 3 seasons before you're 25. I would rather a young player start out cold like Hardy and ascend, then a player start out hot and decline. When was the last time a player that descended at the start of his career managed to turn it around? There must be a couple, but I'm drawing a blank right trying to come up with one and don't have the time to sit down and research it.

 

Descending players are the devil and scare the heck out of me.

[Chio151]

Descending players are the devil and scare the heck out of me.

I would argue that Cameron is a descending player as well. If you look at recent centerfielders like Griffey and Bernie Williams, they seemed to hit a wall in their mid 30s. Once that range goes, you have little else. I'd hate to be spending all of 09 watching Cameron slow down and everyone covering for it with 'reputation'.

 

Melky has three things that Cameron does not:

 

1. Potential offensive growth -- He has good offensive numbers in the past, and is very young. Cameron actually defied the odds last year and will not be able to find lightning in a bottle again.

 

2. Salary room -- Gives us the ability to add other pieces

 

3. Tradable asset beyond 09 -- We would control Melky for a few years and could use him in a package. Cam is a one-year guy.

 

 

Cameron has two things Melky does not:

 

1. Defensive experience

2. Power numbers

 

 

Cameron is a flawed player. Melky is a flawed player. But Melky could give us more return, especially on small investment.

[trwi7]

I would argue that Cameron is a descending player as well.

Cameron has shown no signs of descending. He might, but he hasn't shown that he is. Cabrera has descended and the reason it's concerning is because he's still young. Usually young players struggle and as they adjust, they improve. It's been the exact opposite for Cabrera and that is very concerning.

[strawbossisevil]

I suppose if you looked at Cameron´s stats he trended down at the age of 25, but yeah, I don´t think it is a good indicator in regard to his future performance.

 

That said, if the Brewers can get Cabrera and either Brackmann or Betances for Cameron. I would do it. I think the difference between the two (Cameron and Cabrera) is not going to be huge, and if the Brewers can get a solid pitching prospect and money from deal I would do it.

[chadomac]

sorry if this was mentioned already (i didn't read this entire thread), but this trade is now posted on brewers.com as likely to happen. so i assume since it's on the brewer's website, it definitely is going down (if anyone had any doubts)

[yoshii8]

sorry if this was mentioned already (i didn't read this entire thread), but this trade is now posted on brewers.com as likely to happen. so i assume since it's on the brewer's website, it definitely is going down (if anyone had any doubts)

Actually that article is gone, and now it is replaced w/ this one, where it seems to be a little less of a guarantee.

 

http://milwaukee.brewers....mp;fext=.jsp&c_id=mil

[BrewCrewForever]

At first I was not a big fan of this trade. But the more I think about the youth/potential of Cabrera, cost/years under control and the fact he is a switch hitter I love the deal. I just hope Melky does improve and turns into the hitter the Yankees hoped he would.

[dpapo]

Haas linked this Newsday article about Sheets in the Sheets thread, but at the bottom of the article, I saw the following which relates to the potential Cameron/Cabrera deal, ''

 

'Still on hold for the Yankees is a possible trade of Melky Cabrera for Mike Cameron. The Yankees want the Brewers to pick up part of Cameron's $10-million salary for 2009 or include another player in the deal.'

The Yankees want the Brewers to include another player in the deal if they don't pick up part of Cameron's contract. I sure hope Haudricourt is correct about the Brewers getting a second player back and not Newsday.

[BrewCrewForever]

I think it's funny the Yankees think they are in a position to tell people to pick up contracts. Outrageous.

[kramnoj]

It's only outrageous if you think Cashman actually expects another player or cash to get Cameron. He doesn't. He is just negotiating with Melvin. By making these demands, Cashman is letting Melvin know that Melvin is asking too much for a 36 year old CF that is already being paid close to market value. Cashman isn't going to give up Kennedy and he was never going to give up Hughes. Anybody who expected it just wasn't being realistic.

 

Cashman figures that there isn't much of a market for Cameron outside the Yankees, so he can play hardball with Melvin until Cashman gets a deal he likes. That deal is probably Melky, and possibly a low ceiling minor leaguer.

[aracko]

Id like to know if there was any way we could get Melky and Dellin Betances? I dont know where he projects on the Yanks future or propsect chart or where in the rotation he willl be but if there was any way Melvin could pull a top A ball guy like this I would be thrilled. Id even throw in Hall and pick up half of Cams money.

[Principessa21]

Descending players are the devil and scare the heck out of me.

I would argue that Cameron is a descending player as well. If you look at recent centerfielders like Griffey and Bernie Williams, they seemed to hit a wall in their mid 30s. Once that range goes, you have little else.

 

[snip]

O/T

Regarding Bernie, did he have good range if he had terrible jumps and took poor routes? He always got to the ball because he was a great athlete and was super fast. Can someone point me to a place that discusses this?

 

Also with Bernie, even though he declined in the field quickly, his bat was still valuable a couple more years. Right now the Yankees seem more concerned with the hole Melky/Gardner gives to the lineup than the defense in center. Also they're not looking for anyone long term since it seems Jackson should be up by 2010/2011. This deal only makes sense to meif the Brewers get a solid pitcher in the deal or Melvin's dumping salary solely to get a FA pitcher.

[Ennder]

1. Potential offensive growth -- He has good offensive numbers in the past, and is very young. Cameron actually defied the odds last year and will not be able to find lightning in a bottle again

 

He didn't really defy the odds, he just hit in a neutral park instead of a pitchers park for the first time in his career.

[reillymcshane]

The problem with comparing Cameron to Griffey and Williams is that the latter two suffered injuries that dramatically affected their playing ability. Williams hurt his knee and Griffey has had numerous injuries - back, knees, if I recall. Cameron, however, has not (his only major injury didn't affect his arm or legs). And while he doesn't run like he did 10 years ago, he's still pretty good. Brewers rated him 6th best CF in the league last year.

 

He's going to take a dive sooner or later - but for now, he's pretty much what he has shown - a .250ish hitter with good power, good speed and above average defense, who will strikeout 140+ times a year.