Attanasio "We have to be fiscally responsible..." [merged... Mark A.: Sign of strength or sign of weakness? reply #52ish]

[rluzinski]

The ownership group (of which Mark A. is just one of many) may be tempted to try and squeeze more profit out of the Brewers if their personal financial situation has recently worsened. I think that's a fair observation. That doesn't automatically mean that they'll try to get the team payroll as low as possible though. If they don't feel like they are likely going to compete for the playoffs, winning 81 or 85 games probably won't make much of a difference to the bottom line. They aren't just going to gut the team, though.

 

Of course, this is DECEMBER, so it's very difficult to gauge the intentions of the ownership group has for 2009. They are probably making the right choice in being patient this off season. They could signa good starter and closer to one year deals in late January and still be positioned pretty well for the upcoming season.

 

Maybe we could just wait to see what happens? Pretty please?

[MickeyDavis]

This is the disadvantage to have an ownership group instead of one owner. While we can all criticize Herb Kohl for the moves he's made over the years, he's been willing to take annual losses knowing he will recoup that, and more, whenever he does sell the team. Mark has made it clear in the past that the Brewers ownership group wants a return on their investment every year. They are not willing to wait until they sell to make their cash (although they will make money then too).

 

Not every sole owner of a team is a good owner of course. But most of them own teams because they love the sport and because of the vanity of owning a professional team. They don't need to make money every year.

 

But before we criticize Mark and Doug and give up on 2009, let's wait and see how the offseason plays out. It's really just started.

[tigerbrew]

I believe I saw this quote above: "Attanasio also said that the franchise turned a slight profit this past season, although he did not disclose specifics."

To me this "slight" profit statement by MA is a little puzzling, I thought it should be more than slight profit for the 2008 season.

[Roscoe Chill]

I agree it's early. I also agree with those that feel the window has closed. That's why the Yost-led collapse was so disappointing in '07. I think people were thinking it was going to keep getting better, when in reality, '07 and '08 was the Brewers window. Again, I know it's early. But this is a Brewers message board, and if we all just wait to see what happens, this site doesn't really have much of a purpose, and we should just all buy the 2009 Brewers in Review video in 9 months, right? I don't think it's so absurd to have an opinion on the team that this site is based on.

[TooLiveBrew]

Maybe we could just wait to see what happens? Pretty please?

 

Fie! Off with his head!

[homer]

Just because one window closes doesnt mean the team will suck forever. There's still a lot of young talent locked up for a long enough time that they could make legit runs in 2010 and 2011 - and I'm not giving up on 2009 yet.

[Crew2323]

I am not ready to give up on 2009 yet either. As Homer said, there is a lot of young talent on this team. Parra now has a full year of experience under his belt, which he should improve from. Gallardo is a bit of a wildcard, since he was out most of last year, but there is no question about his ability, that's for sure. I have no doubt that Melvin will add a quality arm to the rotation and solidify the pen. And let's not forget that our lineup is still pretty much the same. The Brewers were in first for most of 2007 with most of our current lineup/rotation, and they were in the thick of things in 2008 even before CC arrived. With all that in mind, I don't think it is nearly as dire as Buster Olney would lead people to believe. 2009 is not a wash by any stretch of the imagination.

[rluzinski]

You know, I'm noticing that some of the same names that are already giving up on the 2009 season also gave up on the 2008 season at one point. Naaa, must be my imagination. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

If the season starts and the team looks exactly as it does now, I'll be the first to say that the Brewers have no real shot at the playoffs. But it's December right now, so the idea that it's already too late to improve this club for 2009 seems pretty silly to.

[bklynbrewcrew]

Its pretty hard not to panic when we refuse to negotiate with Ben Sheets and Melvin mentions guys like Jaime Moyer. Its hard not to panic when we are about to have a complete salary dump with Cameron. So far we have signed the likes of Swindle, Julio, and Coffey and are on the verge of losing Sheets and Cameron with CC already out the door. If we sign a Moyer or Garland or any of these other third tier stiffs while Sheets leaves we will have severely weakened our rotation. CF is a complete mess with Melky Counsell replacing Cameron.

 

I dont get all this talk about its early when we seem to be taking steps backward every day. We only seem to be searching the trash bin for replacements for stars and although its early nothing good has happened so far. We waited so long to have a playoff team and here we are now trading for the likes of Melky Counsell. yes the offseason is still ongoing but the signs are not good. I am sorry for being so negative but I am very sad with the thoughts of losing Sheets and not adding a viable replacement.

[PeaveyFury]

Its pretty hard not to panic when we refuse to negotiate with Ben Sheets and Melvin mentions guys like Jaime Moyer.

 

bklyn, you've been warned about repetitive posting several times on this board, and this is the third different thread you've posted this in in the last 15-20 minutes. Please, stop.

 

Thanks.

[twobrewers]

Mark has made it clear in the past that the Brewers ownership group wants a return on their investment every year.

Just curious if you have any links to back that up - I've never heard that.

 

(Not trying to call you out, I would really just like to read something along those lines)

[TheCrew07]

IIRC the Brewers had over $110 million in debt when the franchise was sold. People do understand that if the team operates in the red, they have to take out more loans which increases the debt load... this is simple economics. The net wealth of the owner is irrelevant, and always has been. The large markets have owners with deep pockets, but more importantly they have huge revenue base, the Yankees even have their own network... that's where the competitive advantage lies, in the market size, because the larger the market, the more revenue you can generate.

 

Mark A thought they would lose money acquiring Sabathia, so hearing they came out slightly in the black is a good thing. This is our team people, don't we want them to fiscally sound like the Packers? I don't think it's fair or reasonable to expect the team to have a payroll around 90 mil every single year. If the farm system can start producing consistent pitching to go with the hitting then maybe the payroll will level out in the 80-90 range for multiple years.

 

We should be proud that the smallest market in baseball has a mid market payroll not complaining about the players that got away because the team felt the $ wasn't worth the risk. The economics of baseball are still an issue, and both the players and the owners are to blame. Though I do think that the player's union in baseball is way too powerful but that's another topic entirely.

[bucksbeat]

I just cannot understand panicking on December 4th. The Brewers had an offer on the table for CC, I can't see them breaking the market open bringing in Free Agents until they knew what he was going to do. While we "knew" he wasn't going to return to Milwaukee, that offer was there. Now we're getting into the point where we see the other FAs getting offers and the Brewers can gauge where the true market is so they can set up some kind of plan. I trust that Mark A will be both fiscally responsible and put the best product on the field he can, not completely gut the team.

 

Looking back to 2007 before the collapse, the Brewers played very well with most of the players we have now. They didn't go out and break the bank. They made some wise decisions and put a good team on the field that at least had the skill to hang with the big boys. The same could be said for 2008 prior to dealing for CC. Although it's evident now that the Brewers needed him in the second half, the Brewers weren't exactly out of it before he came.

 

There's still plenty out there and there's always the opportunity for a trade.

 

Think of this at least. A few years ago we weren't in this situation. The bar was so low it was underground.

[JenksFan5]

He has also stated before, in similar words, that the amount of money he has staked in the Brewers is PEANUTS compared to what he has on wall street. I met a gas station attendant in Madison who lost $6,000 of his 401K due to the recession. Just think of the kind of money Mark A. must have lost

So the guy had $14,000-$15,000 in his 401k? Most of the major market indexes are down 35-40% year-to-date. It's the people that were invested too aggressively right before retirement that are really hurting. Many people have lost much more.

 

I do not think that Attanasio losing money in his personal investment portfolio has much to do with the budget being limited. He just realizes that a smaller market team like the Brewers can't make too many mistakes with their signings and the team is betting that the recession is possibly going to effect how many games people go to. Attanasio is a smart guy and the team is run more like a business. We as fans are just going to have to get a little more used to that fact.

[owbc]

I'm in the "there's way too much panicking going on" group.

 

There's no doubt that the Brewers would not have made the playoffs without Sheets and Sabathia, but it's not like they are suddenly a 70 win team without them.

 

I expect they will make a few moves and be right back in it in 2009. Where are the other big signings in the NL Central? What have the Cubs done? The Astros? The Cardinals? The Reds?

 

Our players gained a key year of experience and we have more prospects ready to come up to the majors. There really isn't anything to be concerned about. We could easily be in the same situation in 2009 at mid-season (slightly over .500) and make another move to get over the top.

 

Just be glad CC went to the AL and not another NL team.

[danzig6767]

I didn't want to start a new thread and this seems like the most appropriate place to post this.

 

I heard some comments from Scott Boras this morning on XM. Basically he was complaining about "teams that have not won anything for years". He stated that instead of investing in payroll some of these teams were basically taking the money and paying down debt to increase the owner's equity in the team. These comments sicken me. I find it funny that players and agents like to throw around the phrase "hey, in the end, it's a business" when it's conveinent for them like when they leave a small market team for more money (I'm not necessarily talking about CC). However, when the owners (who by the way own the teams) try to make business decisions that are not in the best interest of the players, the players cry foul.

I can understand why players and agents don't like the fact that some small market owners are taking in 20-30 million a year in revenue sharing money that was intended to be spent on increasing payrolls and instead those owners are either just pocketing the cash or paying down debt with it which is basically the same thing as pocketing the money, only it looks better to the public for whatever reason to say they are paying down debt.

 

IIRC the Brewers had over $110 million in debt when the franchise was sold. People do understand that if the team operates in the red, they have to take out more loans which increases the debt load... this is simple economics. The net wealth of the owner is irrelevant, and always has been.

You understand right that Attanasio chose to keep that debt in place when he bought the team? By assuming that debt, it allowed him to buy the team for a lower price and with all the profit he's made over the years that has allowed for him to lower the debt, it simply makes the team worth that much more money whenever he chooses to sell the Brewers. In fact, it's a bit misleading IMO when it's referred to in the media that Attanasio is paying down the "teams debt" because really it's just Attanasio and the ownership groups debt since they are in effect the Milwaukee Brewers by owning the team. There really isn't that much difference between Attanasio taking his profits and sticking them in his bank account or paying down the debt, but when he pays down the debt instead, he can make it look like the "profit" he made is less. If you own a business and say it's 100,000 in debt and i gave you 50,000 for the hell of it, whether you put that 50 grand in your bank account or pay off half your debt, you're up 50 grand regardless.

 

Attanasio and other small market teams that get large chunks of revenue sharing dollars can do what they want with the money, they own the teams, not me. That said, i still can see the players side and the side of a percentage of fans who get annoyed when some owners instead use those revenue sharing dollars to just enrich themselves vs what was supposed to be the intention of revenue sharing. Obviously Attanasio has spent more than other small market teams though and wouldn't be a main culprit in who Boras was talking about.

[sgtcluels]

I will admit I'm some what concerned for the Brewers. Right now, we are projected at roughly 74 wins. That's a pretty big drop. I understand people concern about the rotation, losing arguably two of the top 5 pitchers to free agency leave a big gap, and a huge reliance on Suppan and who ever the #5 starter is. On the other hand, I guess we have to trust in DM. and understand we aren't in a position to not really worry about a 21 million a year contract if the player gets hurt. Small market kind of stinks.. to bad the MLBPA would never allow salary capping.

 

I don't care what Scott Boras says, off course he wants every last dime the owners can spend paid to player contracts. His lively hood depends on it, wait who am I kidding, his diamond studed solid gold toilet with 100 dollar bill toilet paper depends on it. The poor guy only makes 10 - 20% of his players salary, think of the children. I hope the Boras clan does't have to consider using lowely 50 dollar bills. He just wants us to over pay for talent right now, so off course he's going to complain as he see his players value (And the likelyhood of $100 bill TP) slowly slip away. He wants a bidding war to set the base salary super high for talent the likes of Suppan.

 

Brewers have to stay in operation to keep a club here, if MA has to use some of the profits to pay down debt to stay in. I'm fine with it, I'd think any owner group who bought the Club would consider moving it. MA seems at least overtly alright with keeping hte club in Milwaukee. The fact is, we are a small market. We have to probably stick to the likes of other small market franchise that become succesfull. Salary dump, use our young talent, then salary expand make a push for the playoffs and then repeat. I'd rather MA keep the Club in a position to do that, then follow the Selig perineal never that good club.

 

Right now we are int he midst of a small rebuild year, the good news it should hopefully only be a year. The bad news, I'm to used to winning now!

[rluzinski]

Where did that Brewer projection come from? It sounds a little low, even with a Galardo/Parra/Bush/Suppan/McClung rotation.

[Invader3K]

The big culprits as far as absorbing their revenue sharing dollars are (reportedly) the Pirates, Royals, and Marlins. I'm sure there's a couple others, but those are the big ones...and those teams really don't have any excuses, especially the Pirates, with their new stadium.

[Ennder]

Where did that Brewer projection come from? It sounds a little low, even with a Galardo/Parra/Bush/Suppan/McClung rotation.

I have to agree, we didn't lose 16 wins worth of players and if anything the team probably underperformed last year as a unit. I'd say losing Sabathia, Sheets and Torres is probably around a 10 win drop with an added win or two from Gallardo being healthy and a win or 2 from losing Turnbow, Gagne, Riske being healthy, Hall sitting more vs righties etc. So we are looking at something like a .500 team or maybe a game or two over .500.

[Invader3K]

Yeah...I am no expert, but I would say the Brewers are probably about an 80 win team right now. Just kind of a hunch.

[sgtcluels]

I can't seem to dig up the source, but it included the drop in production for Cabrera (Assuming he still sucks) and a replacement level pitcher for the 5th slot. It looked to weigh the loss of Sheets and Sabathia pretty intensely and assume regression by Bush and horrible regression by Soup (tERA numbers looks pretty horrible for him)

[bjkrautk]

I think that the Economic uncertainty can have all kinds of ripple effects on the Brewers revenue streams and projected income. If their revenue coming in isn't as large as it was last year, I don't think it's crazy to push down the payroll with that in mind. (Even if they can keep attendance high....will there be a trade-off in lowered concession / merchandise revenue?) That's not to say that the Brewers should field a team in the $40-million range next year; a slight bump upward from the 2008 starting (pre-C.C.) payroll would be fine.

 

I also hate the idea of projecting win #s for a team that isn't even close to training camp....as though the number itself has any real value. They're not done putting the team together yet.

 

The interesting part of the Mark A. quotes - to me anyway - was the discussion of a "Budget-busting name." The acknowledgement that there are players whose reputations alone will help put fans into the seats. I hardly think it's coincidence that Randy Johnson and John Smoltz are on the FA pitchers list, as they're both guys that I would make sure to buy a ticket just to see in a Brewers Uniform (like I did C.C. and even Hideo Nomo back in the day). Call me optimistic, but I think the Brewers will sign one "budget-busting" name before the off-season is over.

[CheezWizHed]

I really don't think there is much correlation between Attanasio's business and the Brewers. It's not like he's running the team on his own dime.

 

Maybe I'm confused... but I thought that's what you are doing when you own a business.

As with any corporation, you buy into it with your own money (i.e. buying enough stock for controlling interest), but the company is RUN off of the cashflow that organization brings. GM is having HUGE problems with cashflow.

 

Thats why if a corporation goes bankrupt, none of the personal money of the stock holders is effected.

 

The Brewers are a private corporation (no stock), but it works the same way. An owner can pour his own money in if he/she so chooses (I would guess Mark Cuban and the Redskins owner have done this), but its not like all their money is in one big pot to be used by anyone.

 

Edit - spelling.

[owbc]

Call me optimistic, but I think the Brewers will sign one "budget-busting" name before the off-season is over.

I agree and I think it's in the plans.

 

For some reason, these guys are kind of being ignored at the moment, and I think it's a great idea to jump on it and get at least one of them--maybe more. I would take a rotation with Johnson and Smoltz despite their age--and I have no doubt that either could serve as a decent closer as well. They are also household names and future hall of famers, which is huge for public relations with the loss of CC. Furthermore, they will fill the gap for a few years during the recession while other teams overspend and lose significant amounts of money.

 

Mark A. knows exactly what he is doing. The Brewers are putting themselves in a situation to be a major player in 2-3 years when they will be able to combine the next "wave" of prospects (Gamel/Escobar) with retained long term contracts from the first group (Braun, Hardy/Hart/Weeks possibly), acquired trade acquisitions from Fielder and whoever else gets traded, and free agent pickups which will be much cheaper after baseball plays for a full season in a down economic year. This isn't a salary dump, it is a delayed reloading due to the economic situation.