Your 2009 Hall of Fame Ballot

[apirk]

Just Rickey IMO

 

The one thing that makes the baseball hall of fame great is that it only inducts the absolute best unlike the others. Yeah a few of those guys were really good players but not great.

[SenatorShriv]

Rickey and Blyleven are my votes.

Rickey Henderson defined the role of a leadoff hitter. Should be a sure thing.

I really don't get why Blyleven isn't in already. He is darn close to 300 wins, and has some HUGE strikeout numbers. I guess his All-Star #'s are low, but I don't think that should be one of the main factors when looking at HOF candidates. Are there other major diggs against him that I'm not aware of?

Dawson, Raines and several others on the list fall just short for me. (As I mentioned in the Pleasac thread, I err on the side of keeping the HOF more exclusive.)

[Bikeage77]

Blyleven, Hederson, Raines, Rice

 

I'd imagine Lee Smith gets in eventually as at one point he had the record for saves.

 

I loved Mark Grace as a kid, but I don't see him getting in. He had a good average and close to 2500 hits, but as a first baseman, he didn't have enough power to help his cause.

[Fatter than Joey]

Jack Morris was the dominant right handed pitcher in the American League in the 1980s. Enough said. But then he continued to play well into the early 1990s also. He was one of the most feared hurlers of all AL hitters. Hall of Fame is supposed to equal best player during the time period of your career. Jack was that.

 

No he wasn't... Jack Morris only accumulated the most wins from the arbitrarily created era of 1980-1989 -- which is a fine thing, but to say he was the most dominating pitcher in the 80s is far from true.

 

Once Clemens hit the scene in full effect in 1986, he was the most dominating pitcher. Before 1986, Morris was outpitched by guys like Saberhagen, Hoyt, Stieb, Blyleven, Mike Witt, etc...

 

Morris was a very good pitcher who racked up a lot of wins playing for the Sparky Anderson Tigers.

 

As a side note, I hate it when players/pitchers get props for "having the most wins in the 1980s" -- when really it is a function of starting your career in 1979 rather than mid-decade like most players end up doing.

[joepepsi]

I like the nods to Trammell. In the past I argued passionately for the guy. Frankly, he and Lou Whitaker are probably both deserving. The 3 best ss in the AL in the 1980's were Yount, Ripken and Trammell. Yount won MVP in '82, Ripken in '83, and Trammell won WS MVP in '84. There wasn't a huge difference between these three in their peak years. Trammell didn't run up the counting stats due to a lot of injury plagued seasons after he turned 30. Among the 22 ss in the HOF he would rank 11th in hits, 5th in hr's, 9th in doubles, 12th in *OPS+.

[Invader3K]

I don't get the arguments against voting in some of the so called "borderline" guys. I'm not saying it should turn into being like the NFL Hall of Fame, where basically any guy with a somewhat notable career seems to get an induction, but I don't think letting in guys like Alan Trammel and Dave Parker would really diminish the accomplishments of anyone else in the MLB Hall of Fame. Both of those two were impact players in their day, and had fairly lengthy careers, so I don't see why they should be excluded. I also think the idea of sticking basically only to about three major stats when considering induction is rather silly. Then again, I also dislike how only writers get a vote...there are even writers who haven't covered baseball in years who still get votes, if I understand correctly. How does that make any sense?

[joepepsi]

I agree Invader.

 

For some reason the 1980's seems to be the most underrepresented decade in the Hall. I wonder if this has to do with the parity in the league. When one team, like the 96-2001 Yankees, is winning championships every year, it seems writers eventually vote in half the roster. But from 82-88 the AL sent a different team to the Series each year--Brewers-Orioles-Tigers-Royals-Red Sox-Twins-A's. It's like the writers can't keep track of all the good players from the 80's because they were spread across so many teams.

[Fatter than Joey]

If Raines and Blyleven would have been Red Sox or Yankees in their prime they would be locks.

 

Can anyone show me, where being a Yankee or Red Sox has actually helped a player in getting elected to the HOF?

 

People keep saying this, but where is the merit behind it?...

 

If it were in fact true -- guys like Mattingly, Guidry, Nettles, Munson, Rice, Evans, Lynn, etc... would all be in the HOF now.

[splitterpfj]

Catfish Hunter and Phil Rizzuto.

[Fatter than Joey]

Catfish Hunter -- maybe -- I never liked his induction -- of course he racked up a lot of wins for Oakland, and pitched in a lot of post-seasons. Did he get in because he

had one 20 win season for the Yankees? -- I think if he had pitched in Oakland in 1975 and 1976, the same people would have still voted for him. I would chalk Catfish's induction up to more of an overvaluing of wins, than Yankee bias.

 

Rizzuto -- of course you know he wasn't voted in by the BBWA. He never got over 45%. He was inducted by the VC about 40 years after his retirement, and

was probably in consideration for his 40 years of announcing and playing.

 

I still think that the HOF voting is skewed to Yankees and Red Sox is largely a myth that just keeps getting repeated.

[splitterpfj]

I do think the Yankee thing is overblown...Roger Maris isn't in, Joe Gordon isn't in, etc.

 

I think Hunter wouldn't have gotten anywhere near the HOF without his time in NY, and I still can't figure out why he's in. Rizzuto was elected by the Veterans, but again, no chance if that same career happens in Missouri.

 

Bill Mazeroski also got some indirect benefit, and also from the Vets. If he didn't hit that HR to beat the Yankees in the World Series, how many of us would know about him?

[Fatter than Joey]

If Raines and Blyleven would have been Red Sox or Yankees in their prime they would be locks.

 

Disagree -- If Rizzuto was the announcer for the Cardinals for the last 40 years (and had the playing career that he did), he probably would have gotten in.

 

I think people really liked Rizzuto.

[Bikeage77]

I can see why Hunter got in. He only pitched 15 seasons, but due to diabetes he retired. Based on his number of innings and starts his last 3 seasons, it appears as he was plagued by injuries, or fatigued by his disease.

 

224 wins in that time is pretty good, seeing as how if he threw about 140 innings in 1977, 120 in 1978, and 105 in his final year. He got over 200 wins in 13 seasons. That's pretty impressive.

 

I'm not gonna make in depth comparisons of Catfish to Koufax, or Pedro Martinez, but Koufax was limited to 11 seasons and ended with 165 wins.

 

Shorter dominate careers can lead you to the HOF. If Hunter stuck it out another few seasons and only picked up another 8-10 wins, I don't know if he would have got in.

[JohnBriggs12]

"Tommy John was not an outstanding player by any means"

 

I beg to differ with you on that. Did you ever see him pitch? I did. The man won 288 games in a career interupted by surgery. He went from a power pitcher to the ultimate finesse guy. Heck with Tommy John surgery, Tommy John Was a Surgeon on the mound. He had a career 3.34 ERA. He was in the top 5 in league ERA 6 times. He won 20 or more games 3 times. He was a 4 time All Star. He had a postseason ERA of 2.65.

 

He shouldn't get in on his surgery. He belongs in on his numbers. Yes he played on some good teams, but he was on 2 of the worst teams in history, the 1969 and 1970 White Sox.

 

Along with John should go Blyleven, Morris, Rice, and Henderson.

[joepepsi]

Herb Pennock played for both the Red Sox and Yankees for a long, long time. He isn't HOF worthy though. 3500 ip, 3900 hits, 1227 Ks, 916 bb's. 3.60 ERA vs league ERA of 3.80. It's kinda like Suppan getting in if he pitches till he's 40.

 

Lefty Gomez is also questionable, imho. I would have no problem with Joe Gordon getting in though. Bobby Doerr is in--their rate stats are nearly identical--and they played in almost the exact same era.

[splitterpfj]

FTJ, people did like Rizzuto - myself included. If they had put him in as an announcer, I think it would have been great, his inclusion as a player was a major reach.

 

Rizzuto won an MVP and finished second in the voting another time - I respect that.

 

Rizzuto had the heart of his career ripped out by the war - I respect that.

 

Career totals - 1588 hits, 38 HR, 563 RBI, .273 Average, .706 OPS

 

Among the ten similar batters on baseball-reference.com, we find Jose Offerman, Jim Gantner, Tom Herr and Delino DeShields.

 

I loved the guy, he was a great ambassador, and he deserved to go in as an announcer....but this is not, was not, and will not ever be a Hall of Fame player.

[Fatter than Joey]

FTJ, people did like Rizzuto - myself included. If they had put him in as an announcer, I think it would have been great, his inclusion as a player was a major reach.

 

I agree Rizzuto was a stretch -- The VC however could consider other aspects other than their contributions as a player.

 

In either case, Rizzuto was not voted in by the BBWA which is what this thread is centered around.

 

Herb Pennock played for both the Red Sox and Yankees for a long, long time.

 

Pennock is questionable as well -- he was inducted in the 1940s though

[joepepsi]

I give the voters credit for passing on Mattingly so far. He had 4 outstanding seasons in a row, followed by two more pretty good ones, then was done. That's not enough. It'd be like voting in Nomar Garciaparra. Mattingly is one of the most overrated players of all time. Kudos to the voters for getting this one right so far. Gil Hodges is another one.

[mothershipconnection]

I went Rickey and Tommy John.

 

From the ESPN poll:

 

7.5% Harold Baines (Statistics)

7.4% Mo Vaughn (Statistics)

6.2% Dan Plesac (Statistics)

6.2% Greg Vaughn (Statistics)

4.7% Jay Bell (Statistics)

4.4% Matt Williams (Statistics)

4.1% Ron Gant

 

Seriously?

[apirk]

I give the voters credit for passing on Mattingly so far. He had 4 outstanding seasons in a row, followed by two more pretty good ones, then was done. That's not enough. It'd be like voting in Nomar Garciaparra. Mattingly is one of the most overrated players of all time. Kudos to the voters for getting this one right so far. Gil Hodges is another one.

I'd hardly say Mattingly is overrated. For a period of time he was absolutely one of the best 1B at the plate and even more in the field and then he got hurt. Does he belong in the Hall, no even as a fan I can't say he should. I don't know of too many people who think he should be in the Hall but they still think he was a great player before he got hurt. There are a lot more overrated players that come to mind that are in the Hall or will be in the hall cough Biggio cough.

 

Personally I don't think anyone who is considered "Borderline" should be inducted. Either you were a HOF player or you aren't and if you've been on the ballot more then a couple of years obviously to me you shouldn't be in otherwise you might as well turn Cooperstown into the joke that Canton is.

[RyDogg66]

Canton is a joke. Someone was running his mouth about how Kurt Warner is a Hall of Fame QB and I laughed and said not a chance. He then challenged me to name one QB who has had a better career than Warner that was NOT in the Hall and I could only come up with Randall Cunningham, and that is debatable.

[clancyphile]

Rickey Henderson - the stats say it all

Tommy John - He deserves to be in, if only for the risk he took to save his career.

Mark McGwire - As far as I'm concerned, the andro was legal and allowed by MLB, so he gets a vote.

Bert Blyleven - A fine career, and the numbers are not much different from Tommy John's.

Jack Morris - I'll put him in based on the three World Series rings and the CG%.

 

Almost making my cut:

Jim Rice

Alan Trammell

Dave Parker

Tim Raines

[Baldkin]

Rickey and Raines should be locks. Just because Raines happened to play during the time of the greatest leadoff hitter ever shouldn't penalize him, he's probably the 2nd best since WWII. As should Blyleven. I don't see how they aren't in. I'd put McGwire in as well.

 

Alan Trammell and Tommy John are my maybe's....

 

Definite No's from me: Jim Rice (If you vote for him, how can you not vote for Dave Parker?), Jack Morris

[splitterpfj]

The case for Blyleven:

 

I compared Bert to a group of ten Hall of Fame starting pitchers, all of whom were active during his career. The group consists of Bob Gibson, Gaylord Perry, Catfish Hunter, Phil Niekro, Steve Carlton, Fergie Jenkins, Jim Palmer, Tom Seaver, Nolan Ryan and Don Sutton. As with the other players I've examined, I wanted to see how Blyleven compared to his peers who are in the Hall on a per season basis.

W=wins, L=losses, CG= complete games, SHO=shutouts, HR= Home Runs Allowed, BB=Walks Allowed, K=strikeouts, ERA=Earned Run Average, S= seasons, 34 starts or 68 relief appearances=1 season

S	W	L	CG	SHO	HR	BB	K	ERA
19.4	15.2	11.8	12.2	2.7	20.2	80.3	161.8	3.13	Group
20.2	14.2	12.3	11.9	2.9	21.2	65.4	183.2	3.31	Blyleven

There were 10 Hall of Famers at his position during his career, an average season for the group was 15-12, Bert was 14-12. They threw 12 complete games per season, so did Bert. Blyleven held a slight edge in shutouts, walked 15 fewer batters per season, and struck out 21 more batters per season. Again, these facts are in comparison to 10 elected Hall of Famers from Bert's position, during Bert's era - same ballparks, same rules, same opponents, etc.

The man is 5th ever in Ks, and 9th ever in shutouts. Ever...as in 4 guys have more Ks and 8 guys have more shutouts, in over 100 years of play.

 

According to Baseball-Reference.com, 8 of 10 similar pitchers are in the Hall of Fame. 80% of his peers got 75% of the vote or higher.

Blyleven's exclusion is absolutely ridiculous.

[Invader3K]

One thing to keep in mind, while Blyleven is 5th on the all time strike outs list, when he retired, he was 3rd all time.