Trade Gamel to a Team that Thinks/Knows he can play third?

[Hate those Rodents]

What do you guys think? With so many here thinking Gamel is not the answer at third, or at least thinking it's a HUGE question, should we deal him now while at least a few teams likely think/know he can play third just fine.

[pogokat]

definitely not...if anything, his stick should be better than Corey Hart's...so he's worth keeping around even if he never plays 3rd for a second..

 

i would deal gamel, but not because he's weak...i'd deal him because we were getting a superstar back...but thats about all

[DHonks]

The Brewers seem to think he can play 3b, and possibly as early as next year

[PrinceEatMeat]

Bad idea to deal Gamel. I think Randolph can really help him at 3b, and it seems like we are apt to keep him there. Escobar has a better chance of being dealt than Gamel. There is no way Melvin would deal a young left-handed bat, and I would include Fielder in that category. We badly need lefty balance on this team. It's to the point that we may use Gamel at 3b every day at some point this season.

[Hate those Rodents]

Frankly, these were the type of answers I was hoping for. I somehow get bothered by posts/threads about signing/trading for third basemen that seem like more than a one year stopgap. I think at worse, he our starter at third in 2010.

[endaround]

Of the three big close position players of Gamel, Salome , and Escobar, Gamel is the one that seems leat lkely to betraded. Even if he doesn't stick at 3B, the Brewers maybe shortly looking for a corner OFer or 1B depending on how they deal with Hart and Fielder. Salome is basically a catcher with the Brewers but if he doesn't stick he's a DH and that means trading him, Escobar is behind a better player and depending on how the Brewers deal with Hardy Escobar might be gone.

[JohnBriggs12]

At the very least Gamel is going to platoon at third base at some point in 2009. Maybe they'll keep him at Nashville for a couple months for more work with Money but they will need his lefthanded bat. The Brewers keeping him over LaPorta was a sign how highly regarded he is. He wouldn't be as highly regarded if he were simply a corner OF/1B.

[CheezWizHed]

We will never see Gamel at 3B with Fielder at 1B.

 

Gamel's defensive weakness seems to be throwing, not glove work (based on other's reports, no first hand witness of my own). Fielder's defensive weakness seems to be picking throws out of the dirt and his height limits what he can get to up high. That seems to be a very bad combination.

 

If Albert Pujols was our 1B, I bet Gamel would be our starting 3B next year.

 

If I'm wrong, feel free to feed me my humble pie. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[PrinceEatMeat]

I agree that Gamel and Fielder in the same infield would be a liability defensively, but it's a possibility only because of Melvin's desire to have lefty balance in the lineup. It is very likely to happen if we re-sign CC. The only way Fielder is going anywhere is if CC goes elsewhere, even then I don't see the chances being that high. Trading our best, and only, lefty bat is not something we need to do right now. That being said, Gamel has a chance to start at 3b on opening day, so that infield is looking more and more possible as of late.

[CheezWizHed]

I'm still holding out hope that Gamel will spend '09 in AAA and see good improvement in his D, so that he will be a legit 3B defensively. Then maybe '10 or late '09 we would see him with Fielder (and CC http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif) on the field at the same time. I'm just going to step out and say we won't see it (at least in 2009) for an extensive amount of time (ok, I just added two qualifiers to my "bold" prediction).

 

A couple of years ago, with lower expectations and less options, I could see it happening (ala Braun at 3B). And let him learn one the job at the majors. But with expectations higher this year, I don't know if we could take the hit to defense again.

 

Anyone have any data on Braun's D at 3B vs. Gamel's?

[PrinceEatMeat]

For good basis of comparison, Braun had a combined 31 errors in 2006, splitting time between High A and AA, and in 2007 between AAA and the Majors, he had 29 errors. Last year in AA, Gamel had 30 errors. It's very similar. That worries me. Makes me wonder why we gave up on Braun at 3b, and we haven't on Gamel. One reason may be Gamel's improvement from 53 errors in 2007 at High A ball.

[nate82]

Judging just by the number of errors a player commits is not a good way to determine how good they are at fielding. There are other issues you have to look at than just the number of errors the player made. Braun never looked comfortable at 3B last year he was either hurrying his throws when he didn't need to or charging balls that he didn't need to charge.

[PrinceEatMeat]

I think anyone who makes 30 errors at any position is uncomfortable. That's how errors are caused. If you make a bad play you will get an error. Braun makes the same mistakes in lf as he did at 3b. It's just easier to make errors at 3b. I'm pretty sure Gamel isn't comfortable at 3b either. Maybe he could work in the of like Braun has. Truthfully, I don't think Braun is a good fielder. period. Bad fielders can just be hidden in the of, not at 3b, or anywhere in the infield for that matter. I doubt moving Gamel to 1b like people have suggested would make much of a difference.

[TheCrew07]

How is Gamel/Fielder worse than Hall/Fielder? The only accurate arm in the entire infield is Hardy... so I don't see what one has to do with the other. Maybe on paper these combinations of players work, but the best option at 3B is going to end up at 3B, regardless of who's playing first. I'm not sure what the team's plans are, but I'd be very surprised if the team made it's decision on 3B based on who's playing 1B.

[endaround]

Because Hall is a top flight defensive 3B

[And That]

If you make a bad play you will get an error.

This is false. Some bad plays are not given errors (e.g., Braun had no errors in the field in 2008). Some bad plays are given errors, but given to the wrong person (e.g., Prince Fielder is poor at scooping/picking balls in the dirt and costs other people errors while Derrek Lee is excellent and saves other people errors). Some errors are given on borderline plays that may not have been errors at all (e.g., the "error" on Sabathia in Pittsburgh). While some bad plays do result in errors, not all do, and not all errors come on bad plays.

 

To make the situation worse, minor league error are notoriously doled out in an even more haphazard manner than major league errors. Minor league error totals have some value, but their value is only useful in terms of generalization - a guy with 50 errors at SS probably has a few more problems than a guy with 10 errors at SS. Any further detail on their defense gleaned from this information is rather anecdotal.

 

It is true the biggest hole in Gamel's game is his throwing. He needs more work on that before he's major league ready, IMO.

 

The difference defensively between Gamel and Braun is that Braun's range at third base was historically bad, like the worst range by a regular third baseman in 100 years bad. Gamel doesn't have mind blowing range or anything, but he gets to the easy balls that Braun never was able to get to. If Gamel can just slow down, concentrate on footwork and get his throwing to first down, he can be a good defender at third base. I doubt Braun ever would have gotten to that point.

[GAME05]

and as AT brought up, if Gamel has better range than Braun did, he's also getting to a a lot more balls that would have just rolled past Braun, so the even number of errors with a higher number of balls fielded would make Gamel the better defender. Not that anyone's calling Gamel a great defender, but he must certainly have a greater potential of defensive adequate-ness than Braun.

 

Plus i think Braun was moved away from the position a little faster because we could create a spot for him in LF and because Gamel was coming up behind him. Neither is really there with Gamel.

[nate82]

Plus i think Braun was moved away from the position a little faster because we could create a spot for him in LF and because Gamel was coming up behind him. Neither is really there with Gamel.

Lawrie could be coming up on Gamel's heals rather quickly if the Brewers decide to have Lawrie at 3B instead of at C. Green is also another possibility at 3B. I believe Lawrie may pass up Green though if the Brewers decide to put Lawrie at 3B which I believe would be a better move than having him playing at C.

 

Gamel is destined for the OF though if he can't figure it out at 3B which isn't a bad thing really. You can put Gamel in RF or LF. I don't believ Gamel would make a good 1B Gamel is 6' 0" and that is not much of a difference between him and Prince. The problems would still be there that are there with Prince right now.

[And That]

I don't believe Gamel would make a good 1B Gamel is 6' 0" and that is not much of a difference between him and Prince.

Gamel is an inch or so taller than that, and Prince can't be much over 5'7. Gamel is pretty close to, if not more than, half a foot taller than Prince.

 

In regard to Mat not making a good first baseman based on his height, I guess I don't know how much being a bit over 6'0 has to do with his potential ability, or why it would preclude him from being a good defensive first baseman. Gamel is very athletic and pretty agile - I'd imagine he'd make a very good first baseman once he got adapted to the position. Certainly as a baseline he'd be noticeably better than Prince.

[paul253]

Why not put Gamel at 1st? Fielder doesnt appear to be wanting to resign for anything other than top flight money, and we have no replacement for him. Put Gamel there and you can trade Prince, get some pitching, and allowed Green or Lawrie to play third. I also think Lawrie should be at third, and they should move Green to second.

[nate82]

Gamel is an inch or so taller than that, and Prince can't be much over 5'7. Gamel is pretty close to, if not more than, half a foot taller than Prince.

Prince is around 5'11" how do I know this? Because I am 5'11" and I have stood next to Fielder and we are nearly the exact same height.

[And That]

So how do you know Gamel will not be a good first baseman?

[nate82]

So how do you know Gamel will not be a good first baseman?

The one or two inches difference isn't going to help him stretch out more. I just don't see Gamel being a good 1B or a 3B. I believe he is destined like Braun to be playing in the OF.

[And That]

So there are no good defensive first basemen under, say, 6'3?

 

Keith Hernandez and Don Mattingly are both shorter than Mat Gamel.

[twobrewers]

I just don't see Gamel being a good 1B

Nate, you really haven't provided any basis for your argument other than Gamel is short.

 

Which, as And That pointed out, is incorrect. I would bet Gamel has at least 3 inches on Prince. (Are you really just going to take Gamel's MiLB listed height as fact?)

 

Even without that, a good 1B needs to field balls cleanly and dig out bad throws. If you have some reason you think Gamel (or for that matter, anyone below a certain height) is unable to accomplish these task - I would love to hear it.

 

Seeing as Gamel's biggest weakness to date has been related to his throwing, I am 100% confident he could play a better 1B tomorrow than Prince.