Left-handed bat challenge, part 2

[brewerguy71]

I would like the Brewers to pick up either Robinson Cano or Kelly Johnson, both lefthanded, both decent 2B and can be had for the right price.

 

Cano, Cabrera and/or bullpen help for Cameron to the Yankees

or Hardy to the Braves for Johnson and Gregor Blanco.

[monty57]

I wouldn't mind seeing Abreau or Dunn signed and Hart moved for pitching. While Hart is definitely not at his peak trade value, I wouldn't say he's at an all-time low, as he was an All Star last season. I'd rather sign Abreau, although he may be too expensive. Dunn would require another move for Braun (to RF), only a year after moving him from 3B to LF. I don't know if either of these FAs are realistic, but either one could help, especially if Hart's late-season problems at the plate continue. The question here would be whether they'd be better paying Abreau/Dunn an extra $10MM or so plus having a decent pitcher in trade, or playing Hart and using that extra money to sign a decent pitcher. That all depends on who's available.

 

As has been mentioned regarding 3B, it all depends on whether or not Gamel will be the Brewers' 3B of the future. Moving Gamel to 1B reduces his value, and makes me think he should have been traded instead of LaPorta. If he is going to be moved from 3B, I think it needs to be done this season, in which case they should target one of the young players Colby mentioned. If the Brewers plan on keeping Gamel at 3B, then they're essentially looking for a 1/2 to 1-1/2 season stopgap. If they think he may be ready mid-season 2009, they may be best to stick with Hall/Branyan. If they think he'll be ready next year, someone like Huff may be a good option if the price tag isn't too high, as they could always trade him next offseason (not sure of his contract status). I'm not as worried about Green, as he's still got a couple of seasons in the minors ahead of him, and a lot can change in 2-3 years.

 

Personally, I'd rather Hall be traded or used as a super-sub, backing up 2B/SS/3B. He's an average fielder who hasn't hit the ball at even a decent clip for two years. A trade would either be a salary dump or bad-contract-for-bad-contract. Even though he's too expensive for the role, his biggest asset right now is that he can play multiple positions fairly well, so he probably should be used as a super sub where at least he can provide value by giving some of the better players a day off every now and again.

[Hate those Rodents]

I like the idea of getting Cano and Hughes for something like Cameron and Lucroy. Rather than move Rickie to center though, I think I'd try and send him somewhere for pitching. I guess we'd have a bit of a hole at center then though, so the off-season would not be done. But the pitching staff with Hughes and whatever the return is for Rickie would seem to be enough to give a go to. I actually like the idea of going after Garland too and maybe Penney or Sheets if it could be for a shorter term deal. Lots of jumbled thoughts I guess.

[nate82]

I like the idea of getting Cano and Hughes for something like Cameron and Lucroy. Rather than move Rickie to center though, I think I'd try and send him somewhere for pitching. I guess we'd have a bit of a hole at center then though, so the off-season would not be done. But the pitching staff with Hughes and whatever the return is for Rickie would seem to be enough to give a go to. I actually like the idea of going after Garland too and maybe Penney or Sheets if it could be for a shorter term deal. Lots of jumbled thoughts I guess.

No thanks for Garland we would have to pay him a Suppan type contract and we would be getting a Suppan type pitcher in return. The Brewers already have one over paid #4 or #5 starter on the team and there isn't room for another one.

 

Cano would be good but I'm not sure the Yankees would accept a trade like that for both Hughes and Cano. If the Brewers were to trade Cameron to the Yankees it would be a Cabrera and Kennedy deal. With a Cameron and Lucroy I could see a Cano, Kennedy, and a low prospect. Hughes and Cano would be way to much for Cameron and Lucroy.

 

Cano would be a nice bat to add in the lineup maybe a change of scenary is needed for Cano for him to be successful again.

[Tbadder]

The simple answers are probably the most likely to happen. Therefore I think the answer at 3rd remains a Branyan/Hall platoon. Trading Fielder would hurt the club at the box office, so I doubt we do that. But when we lose CC and if we lose Sheets, and the right teams sign them so that we get maximum compensation, then you look at Dunn and ship Hart, or a Hart/Weeks combination (no way that wouldn't attract significant interest). But stockpiling young players in complicated 1 for 3/4 deals I doubt would work, the pieces would have to fit too perfectly for it to seem plausible.

[endaround]

People need to realize that if Cano doesn't return to his pre 2008 level his contract is an anchor. Since 2006 was so BABIP driven, its questionable how good he is. James' projection for 2009: .295/.333/.461. For comparison Weeks:.257/.364/.435. Cano's contract is $6m in 09, $9m in 10, $10 in 11, $14m in 12 or $2m buyout, $15m in 13 or $2m buyout.

[Hate those Rodents]

There are supposedly rumors in the NY media about Cano interesting the Dodgers and NY wanting Kemp for him. As much of a joke as I hope this is, if LAD are willing to give up anything near that for Cano, I'd do my best to ship them Weeks and take their best offer.

[MNBrew]

Impulsive response du jour on this topic:

 

1. The Yankees want Cameron. Take advantage of them. Get the most you can in return, adding a B prospect if it sweetens the return. If they nibble, consider including Suppan and take a partly crappy salary in return if the years or total dollars aren't worse than Suppan's. Then...

 

2. (Realizing I'm not a big "move player X to another position" advocate...) Move Hart to CF and sign Abreu to a substantive yet careful deal. Hart's a solid/respectable RF and a good enough athlete with some decent instincts not to be lost in CF, as he's proven in short stints before. Abreu's skill set addresses part of the Brewers' big offensive issues and L/R balance. You'd also not be moving a younger player for someone lots older, but end up closer to a wash in the Cameron/Abreu net result. The sentiment to move Hart reeks of a "throw out the baby with the bathwater" mentality due to his Aug/Sept swoon -- a justified emotion but a shortsighted plan IMO.

 

Thus far Cameron out, Abreu in, other players gained in exchange for Cameron. Nothing extravagant lost and no significant salary added, but certain glaring Brewers roster/makeup/production issues addressed.

 

Other than being LH batters, I'm not sure how much of an upgrade Kelly Johnson or Robinson Cano would be offensively over Weeks. They have their plusses over Weeks but also some distinct minuses. Then there's the defensive factor. Cano also comes with a NY-goggles contract, which is horrible unless he becomes the next Joe Morgan & Ryne Sandberg & Davey Lopes & Bobby Grich & Robbie Alomar (with a dose of Gantner humility) rolled into one -- a perennial MVP candidate and sure-fire future Hall of Famer.

 

3. I'd still take Nick Punto as our #5 IF at his price. He's a switch hitter with a good amount of starting experience at 2B, SS, & 3B. Huge upgrade over Counsell and easily enough to justify at Counsell's '08 salary.

 

I'm not sure what to do at 3B yet. Hall/Branyan platoon seems a popular opinion but I'm not convinced that helps us get better. Hall was horrible last year. All in all I wouldn't mind him being gone. Per these ramblings.....

 

Starters:

OF: Braun/Hart/Abreu

IF: (3B)/Hardy/Weeks/Fielder

C: Kendall

 

Reserves:

OF: Kapler (ideally), Gwynn

IF: Punto, (someone younger), Nelson

C: Rivera

[Never Outhustled]

Thus far Cameron out, Abreu in, other players gained in exchange for Cameron. Nothing extravagant lost and no significant salary added, but certain glaring Brewers roster/makeup/production issues addressed.

I'd say you've made all 12 pitchers worse with that defensive alignment. That the worst OF defense in the majors, and I don't think I'm being dramatic. You likely gain some offense, but not enough to justify the defensive losses.

 

 

The sentiment to move Hart reeks of a "throw out the baby with the bathwater" mentality due to his Aug/Sept swoon -- a justified emotion but a shortsighted plan IMO.

I think the reason most that want to deal Hart is because we could likely get a better pitcher for him than we could get for Cameron. Then we could add Abreu to the lineup without killing the defense. That plan isn't shortsighted, its with the longterm idea in mind that the Brewers have some high quality OF prospects soon to be ready.

[TooLiveBrew]

I doubt Dunn signs anywhere that isn't going to play him nearly every day though. If you sign Dunn, which I would really love, you have to trade Hart and move Braun to RF.

 

I agree that Dunn would never sign to be a part-time player (nor should he). I tend to think of him as a LH Burrell, with even more power. I am a big fan of Dunn, and even just seeing someone hoping he could be signed to MIL gets me excited. However, the rational part of my brain then returns & acknowledges that he is going to be one of the richest former FAs once the 2009 season gets going. If it could happen, yes -- sign Dunn & worry about how to get him on the field everyday later.

[BrewCrewForever]

What about possibly trading for Mark Teahen? Straight up Hall for Teahen, I have seen that mentioned a few other places.

[JohnBriggs12]

Look, Gamel is going to start the year at 3B at the very least in a platoon. One or of the following 3: Cameron, Weeks, or Hart, needs to be traded for either pitching or a lefthanded bat to play in his place or both. If one is traded strictly for pitching, then they need to look at FA market for the hitter. If one is traded strictly for a hitter, then it's the FA market for pitching.

 

Hall isn't likely to be traded because his value is so low. But he does allow the Brewers the luxury of being able to use him in a platoon in any of 3 spots (3B, 2B, CF) and Bill Hall facing lefties on a regular basis is not all that bad.

[Roscoe Chill]

I agree Briggs. Recent history with this club has suggested that this site collectively doesn't project arrivals to the big leagues very well. It's almost the opposite of what normally occurs. Braun, Gallardo, even going back to Prince, Hardy, and others were about a year early as far as the majority of people around here had suggested. You're talking about needing a left handed bat, and the lack of realistic options out there, add in the 3B question and voila...Mat Gamel.

[yoshii8]

Look, Gamel is going to start the year at 3B at the very least in a platoon.

I don't think this is a guarantee at all, I think they will wait and see how much his d has improved before starting him in Milwaukee next season. Also, I believe a lot of it will be determined by if Melvin can find another left handed bat or not.

[southpaw121505]

I agree that Gamel starting the year at 3rd for the Crew is more of a possiblility than some people will admit. I'm not saying it would be the right or wrong move, but it very well could happen.

[logan82]

I think they will leave him in AAA to learn 1B. I htink they would prefer Branyan/Lamb/Hall at 3B over Gamel.

[reillymcshane]

Brewers put Gamel at 3B. Leave Weeks at 2B, Prince at 1B. Sign Adam Dunn to play RF. Move Hart to CF. Trade Cameron for whatever.

 

It's the greatest defense in history of the league. If only we could swap Hardy for Jeter.

[MNBrew]

Going a different direction with the rest of last night's impulsive ideas...

 

1. Still sign Punto to be 1st reserve middle IF & 3B as needed.

 

2. I still also like the idea of suckering Texas out of one of their young catchers (Saltalamacchia? That'd be a coup!) in exchange for Suppan and someone else (or some cash to offset the salary) to make this have some appeal to them. That would seem to help, too.

 

3. On the other hand, I heard someone say something about Hardy to MN for Denard Span & one of the Twins' young starters (Slowey?). That'd take care of CF & the rotation, esp. if we were lucky enough to have CC re-sign with the Brewers.

 

4. Still sucker the Yankees into giving up some decent equity for Cameron. Cameron out & Span in saves $9M+. Considering Suppan's also gone, that's another good savings, maybe $6M after offsetting some of Suppan's salary with cash or a cruddy contract in return (maybe even Blalock?).

 

So....

 

Starters:

OF: Braun/Span/Hart

IF: (3B)/Escobar/Weeks/Fielder

C: Kendall

 

Reserves:

OF: Kapler, plus Gwynn (or whomever)

IF: Punto, Saltalamacchia, & Nelson or another younger corner IF (McGehee?)

C: Rivera (+ Salty as needed)

 

IF, IF, IF the Crew could convince CC to resign, then we also end up with...

 

Starters: Sabathia, Gallardo, Parra, Bush, McClung (or some FA we have money for, OR something gained in return for Cameron)

 

Relievers: Riske, Shouse (hopefully), Stetter, possibly McClung, Villanueva, Dillard, someone for the late innings (I'd actually fork out some dough for Kerry Wood)

 

Maybe this doesn't pass all respective litmus tests, but some of the main offensive issues have been addressed and some cash has still been saved. To me this looks like an improved roster and not so RH-weighted at the plate.

[logan82]

some of the main offensive issues have been addressed

 

How does replacing Hardy with Escobar and Cameron with Span make us better offensively? They both look to be worse on offense than the player they would replace.

[MNBrew]

Frankly, I'm not suggesting Span is better offensively Cameron. I'm simply saying I think he'd fit the Brewers' offense needs profile better than Cameron does. Cameron is a power hitter who's rather characteristic of the Brewers' all-or-nothing, free-swinging, high K-ing, RH-heavy lineup. Span is a contact hitting, top-of-the-order/leadoff type of hitter. It's an apples-to-oranges comparison. I'm simply taking the leap that Span might well bring more balance to the Brewers' offense than Cameron does. The Brewers essentially have defined that as one of their off-season needs.

[logan82]

If he isn't a better hitter why do we want him? I disagree with the "needing balance in the lineup" philosophy that people keep talking about. We need better OBP. I would not go out to get that OBP by replacing a hitter with a an inferior hitter. It doesn't matter whether people K less if they are not as good at hitting. I know the Brewers have stated left handed bats and OBP as one of their offensive needs. They need to do that without making the lineup worse though. I am not trying to be a dick, but I am aggravated with all the left handed hitter suggestions for worse hitters to replace our current players.

[MNBrew]

1. "better" is subjective. It depends on what you place value. By some folks' thinking, he may be a better hitter. Apparently just not by yours if you're advocating OPS. Power isn't everything, & it largely props up Cameron's OPS. Typical #1-2 hitters aren't typically 25-HR hitters. If you're advocating OBP, Span's OBP last year was better than Cameron's has ever been. So how is he an inferior hitter?

 

2. the balance in the lineup things has been mentioned by Brewers' brass. I'm not saying I'm necessarily right, but I do believe Doug Melvin to know what he's talking about better than any of us.

[logan82]

.713 minor league OPS for Span vs .788 MLB OPS for Cameron is how Cameron is a better hitter. I would trade SLG for OBP if the OPS was similar or a little lower. When you are talking about a gap that big let alone at different levels I no reason to go beyond OPS.

 

When Melvin talks about balancing out the lineup I really doubt he means replacing a good player with a below average player.

[MNBrew]

When Melvin talks about balancing out the lineup I really doubt he means replacing a good player with a below average player.

Of course that's not what he meant. But you can't surmise that Melvin shares your view on Span.

 

Span's '08, while exceeding projections, was still legit. The guy was a #1 pick for a reason. Torii Hunter (another Twins #1 pick) was nothing very special in the minors or early in his big league career. Then he finally started putting it seriously together. Span's career could go plenty of directions.

 

Right now neither you nor I -- nor anyone -- can know how Span will actually turn out. Is he finally fulfilling the potential he's been known to have for years? Or will he amount to a one-hit wonder? I acknowledge you might end up correct. But no one will know for sure for a couple years unless he gets hurt significantly or becomes a perennial All-Star candidate starting next year.

 

The price to acquire Span right now would not be cheap. I doubt the Twins would agree with you.

[colbyjack]

Going back to the first page, and tieing in some thoughts from other threads, but Mark Teahen would seem to be one of the more available options out there for the Brewers, if the team is confident he could return to 3B. I'm guessing it wouldn't take a ton to get him, and would be a relatively easy fix while keeping the rest of the current roster intact.

 

Dayton Moore reportedly intends to turn his attention on the bullpen. This isn't exactly an area of strength for the Brewers since they have lost, or at least stand to lose so many players to free agency, not to mention Salomon Torres. The Royals still could use an upgrade at one of their two middle IF positions.