Left-handed bat challenge, part 2

[colbyjack]

reillymcshane started a good thread several months ago regarding the team's need to add balance to the lineup. Given the timing of that thread, I figured it would be a good time to start a new one on the same topic. Here's that past thread:

 

http://forum.brewerfan.net/viewtopic.php?t=14831

 

You have to think Melvin is going to make sure that he does something to add more R-L balance to the team's lineup for 2009, but there really aren't too many easy options available outside of having Mat Gamel serve as the team's 3B to open the season. I'm not too worried about Gamel's bat despite the lack of more time at AAA, but his glove may negate any value he adds to the lineup.

 

Third base is the easiest position to address this issue, but again, there aren't too many options, and the ones that are available would all have to be acquired via trade. Any other way to add more balance to the lineup would have to be done at other positions, with RF being a possibility if you think you could go out and acquire free agents such as Bobby Abreu, Raul Ibanez or even trade targets such as Brian Giles or Jeremy Hermida. That means one of Mike Cameron or Corey Hart is dealt. Cameron's name is added if you're confident Hart can play CF, as the CF options aren't that great either.

 

Another option would be to strengthen the bench with plenty of lefty bats. Cliff Floyd would be a welcome addition, but I'm not sure he would offer more than Brad Nelson at this stage in his career.

 

I'm going to focus on the options at 3B, but welcome any and all thoughts to improve the balance in the lineup. I also realize that the team may be placing too big of a priority on this, so I'd rather not debate whether or not this is even necessary.

 

Chad Tracy and Aubrey Huff kind of remind me of similar players, in that they're probably not cut out to play 3B on an everyday basis, but they have done so in the past. Tracy is blocked in Arizona by Reynolds at 3B and Jackson at 1B, although he does provide good depth for that team at both positions. Huff is coming off of a huge season and the Orioles may be inclined to trade him for young talent.

 

Hank Blalock has been talked about before, but the Rangers seem intent on having him split 1B and DH with Chris Davis, as his shoulder injuries have seemed to make 3B more of a problem for him to play. He would need a good RH hitting platoon mate since he doesn't hit LHPs worth a lick. The Rangers did pick up his option, so you would need to pick him up via trade.

 

Mark Teahen may eventually feel the squeeze in KC as they added yet another fringe 1B/DH type in Mike Jacobs, and also have an OF full of players fighting for playing time. Many feel his numbers could bounce back with a return to 3B, and he may be one of the more easily obtained players on this list.

 

Ramon Vazquez is coming off of a career year with the Rangers and is a free agent. He has always hit RHPs better, although you have to be concerned about his home/away splits this past year, as his OPS was approximately 80 points better at home, a hitters paradise. Vazquez is probably more of a bench option.

 

Wily Aybar may be my favorite option, but could be one of the more difficult players to acquire, as he serves quite a few different roles for the Rays, but he is blocked as a starter at 3B (and other IF positions for that matter) given the presence of Evan Longoria.

 

Daniel Murphy is kind of a long-shot/darkhorse option. He played the OF for the Mets, is currently being worked at 2B in the AFL, but played 3B in the minors. He's not considered the greatest defender, and may actually be the eventual replacement for Delgado at 1B. But even then, he doesn't have prototypical power for the position. The Mets reportedly are looking for a left-fielder that can make more of an everyday impact (Raul Ibanez?) which could make Murphy more available since the reports out of the AFL of him playing 2B aren't good.

 

All of these options bring me back to one of the initial points: Would any of these options be significantly better than Gamel to make it worth the trouble of trying to acquire them?

[fleehaw]

I'll bite on your question, but first I'll raise one of my own. What is your long term picture for the Brewers? With exception of Huff, Tracy, and Blalock, the other options would seem to be more of a long term fix. If you believe Gamel will stick at 3B, then acquiring anything more than a stop gap may not make the most sense depending on what you give up. If you believe Gamel is destined for another position, then perhaps it's worth it to acquire a long term fix.

 

Personally, I'd love the Brewers to acquire Aybar. So, I'll continue to beat that dead horse until the roster appears set.

 

Fielder, Salome, and one of Seidel, Rivas, or Welch for Aybar, Perez, and Niemann. Switch Gamel to 1B and find a stopgap there (i.e. Nick Johnson). Aybar and Perez are switch hitters. Johnson and Gamel are both lefties. Trade Cameron & Suppan for Cabrera (Brewers 4th OF) and salary relief. More balance, better overall defense.

[logan82]

Trade for Gabe Gross. Seriously though, we had the same concerns last offseason and nothing was done. It wouldn't surprise me if the same thing happened this time as well.

[colbyjack]

fleehaw, like you, I'm a big fan of Aybar, and overall I really like your idea of acquiring Aybar, Perez and Niemann, although I'm not even sure you would need to add anything past Fielder.

 

Proposing to acquire Perez, Aybar and Niemann coupled with my proposal of Weeks and Cameron for Jenks, Vazquez and Getz would add two starters, a closer, a left-handed bat and two switch-hitters while also improving the team's OBP, cutting down on the numbers of Ks and improving the team D' at 3B and possibly 2B. CF (defensively) could be a wash depending on how Perez thrives in an everyday role.

[reillymcshane]

Few items with the larger swap.

 

Aybar has had some personal issues - alcohol abuse type thing if I recall (please don't take that as gospel, however). Something to be wary of.

 

Also, Aybar, even though he's switch hitter, has also hit lefties much better in his career (.705 OPS hitting righties, while .839 vs lefties).

 

Perez K's a ton (156 last year), although he's shown a solid walk rate (he managed 8 in 60 MLB at bats, which is good). Makes me worry, though, we'd have to go through lots of growing pains. And Perez's numbers at AAA showed he hit lefties better than righties (.705 OPS vs Rigties vs .818 OPS vs lefties).

 

My worry is that our lefty line up would be Perez, Aybar and Gamel. The first two haven't shown great hitting vs righties (which is what we are needing). i'm just going by looking at stats of the players - I haven't really seen either play much. None of these guys would be a power lefty like prince.

 

It's an interesting idea - I know nothing is going to be perfect. I just worry we'd be as weak as last season, without true standout lefthanded hitter. Not that all these guys can't be good someday -- just not lots to back it up at this point with them being so young.

 

We would be better defensively, losing Weeks and Fielder - I wouldn't mind that at all. But Fielder's bat is hard to give up.

 

i do like how it restocks the pitching staff with three new guys. That would be sweet.

[sbrylski]

fleehaw, like you, I'm a big fan of Aybar, and overall I really like your idea of acquiring Aybar, Perez and Niemann, although I'm not even sure you would need to add anything past Fielder.

 

Proposing to acquire Perez, Aybar and Niemann coupled with my proposal of Weeks and Cameron for Jenks, Vazquez and Getz would add two starters, a closer, a left-handed bat and two switch-hitters while also improving the team's OBP, cutting down on the numbers of Ks and improving the team D' at 3B and possibly 2B. CF (defensively) could be a wash depending on how Perez thrives in an everyday role.

 

That's too perfect. It would never happen. I hope DM doesn't shy away from bigger changes like that if it improves the team, just because he doesn't want to make big changes to a playoff team.

[reillymcshane]

Simple idea:

 

Trade Hart for relief pitching or a young starter. I'm not sure of his value, but see what you can get.

 

Resign lamb and bank that he can rebound, get a .800 OPS as your lefty platoon bat at 3B with Bill Hall as your righthanded bat.

 

Let Gamel go to RF.

 

Our defense is probably pretty bad in this configuration, but you have three decent lefties (when playing righthanded pitchers).

 

Again, this is a gamble that Lamb comes back and Gamel can play RF (I haven't seen him, so I don't know if he would profile there well).

[lukevan]

Sign Branyan and also Lamb for the time when Russ is hurt. Keep Hall around to platoon against LHP and super-sub at SS and 2B. I really don't see any better options considering we wouldn't have to trade away players for Branyan or Lamb.

[colbyjack]

That's too perfect. It would never happen. I hope DM doesn't shy away from bigger changes like that if it improves the team, just because he doesn't want to make big changes to a playoff team.

 

Agreed, and I didn't even mention that the payroll would probably be in the $70 million range, giving the team more flexibility moving forward.

 

But I, like you, hopes that Melvin doesn't try to get too cute trying to find more balance to the lineup. If more creative deals can be made, such as the ones proposed above, to accomplish a more balanced lineup and better team defense, I hope he pursues them.

 

Plus, I honestly don't want to be relying on the Branyan's and Lamb's of the world. I do think Brad Nelson and Hernan Iribarren could be very fine (and cheap) lefty bats off of the bench.

 

And Perez's numbers at AAA showed he hit lefties better than righties (.705 OPS vs Rigties vs .818 OPS vs lefties).

 

Perez still hits RHPs just as well in regards to batting average, but his power goes down significantly. One good thing about him batting left-handed is that his groundball rate goes up quite a bit, and he has the wheels to run out infield hits. DHonks mentioned that he was one of the finest CFs defensively in the AFL last year, and I think he could be that leadoff hitting CF that is often referred to by fans but is difficult to identify since there are so few available, if they even exist.

[twobrewers]

I really only see two feasiable options.

1. Branyan platoon with Hall at 3B

2. Hart gets traded and we find a LH OF.

I am not at all keen on trading Hart with his value at an all time low. I don't think Weeks, JJ, Cameron, Braun, or Cameron are going to be moved. I don't see a really good LH 3B option that would produce better than a Hall/Branyan platoon - without costing a ton.

I guess I would sign Branyan (I prefer him over Lamb) to platoon with Hall. Find a LH catcher to back up Kendall. (And give Kendall a few days off). And then keep Nelson as a 5th OF/PH.

And maybe Gamel can stick at 3B and we have our solution by June!

[endaround]

Tracy was as bad as Fielder at 1B last season so I don't really think he is a true option anymore. Teahen was supposed to be a defensive whiz coming up but his time in KC puts him well below average though his bat is the one that really is intriguing. Ayabar was average defensively at 3b (a win below Hall with the glove over a full season) and his offense just isn't there. Outside of moving Hart off the team and Braun to right to make way for Dunn/Abreu its hard to see a really better option than Branyan.

 

There is one other option: A trade of Hall to Oakland for Chavez with the hope Chavez returns to his pre- 2008 level. But now that Oakland got Holliday they might want to hope for magic from Chewie again.

[fleehaw]

Perez strikes me as a player similar to Weeks in that he K's a lot, but also walks a lot. Some people have suggested moving Weeks to CF. Having Perez in CF would actually be better. You'd lose power, but you'd gain a lot in defense.

 

The thing to stress with Aybar and Getz is that they walk at a good rate (approx 1/10 ABs without looking it up) and they don't K a lot. Without turning this into another strikeout discussion, if part of the goal is to get a balanced lineup, then it's more than just lefty-righty. It's about talented guys that K a lot, and some that don't, guys that hit for power, and guys that have speed and get on base. A balanced lineup is one that probably doesn't hit the highest highs, but it's one that also avoids the prolonged lows.

 

Granted it wasn't over a full season, but Aybar had a better zone rating and better fielding % than Hall. If someone would like to shed some light on his range and his OOZ compared to Hall that would be nice.

 

I do recall something that Aybar had some off the field issues when he was traded to the Rays. I haven't heard anything negative of his time with the Rays whether it be in the clubhouse or off the field.

[twobrewers]

Am I being ridiculous- or does signing Adam Dunn make a lot of sense?

 

1. He bats left handed.

 

2. His career OBP is .381

 

He is grossly under appreciated (and at times very frustrating to watch). He could very well sign for $10 - 12 million a year.

 

In 2009 he could play some LF. Against tough RH pitching, you could move Braun to RF and start Dunn in LF. You could also play Hart in CF on occasion (Braun in RF) to get Dunn more playing time in LF. I think Dunn could at least start 3 times a week - in addition to backing up Prince.

 

After this year, he could become a full-time LF with the Brewers trading Hart or moving Hart to CF. He could also play 1B in the event that Prince is traded during or after the season.

 

He would play a pretty big role in 2009 - and likely a huge role in 2010. I can think of much worse ways to spend the money.

 

 

(fixed code --1992)

[lukevan]

I doubt Dunn signs anywhere that isn't going to play him nearly every day though. If you sign Dunn, which I would really love, you have to trade Hart and move Braun to RF.

[Invader3K]

I'd be fine with that. Dunn would look good in the lineup, and Braun can probably play RF just fine at this point. I'd hate to give up Hart, but assuming we could get a decent pitcher for him (RP or SP, either way), that would be tolerable.

[endaround]

Hall's RZR for 3B was .722, Aybar's was .700. PMR's have Hall at 103.51 compare to Aybar at 100.21 which translates to about 9.5 runs over 4000 outs, or more likely to be about 8 runs in a season. Aybar is an average 3B defensively. Now if he could come cheaply he would be ok in a platoon role, just hard to see him coming cheaply.

[reillymcshane]

Could someone give me a rundown on Getz? Don't really know anything about him, and would love a scouting report, etc.

[logan82]

Only a year younger than Weeks. He would probably strike out less, but doesn't look like he would offer any other advantage.

Minor league lines.

Getz .286/.361/.381/.742

Weeks .289/.383/.493/.876

Just my opinion of course.

[colbyjack]

Could someone give me a rundown on Getz? Don't really know anything about him, and would love a scouting report, etc.

 

I briefly talked about Getz in the thread that I proposed acquiring him as part of the bigger deal with the White Sox mentioned above. He hits to contact, and is a solid, not flashy player that works the count, draws walks, put the ball in play, plays solid defense and lately has been hitting for a higher average with improving power. Here's that thread:

 

http://forum.brewerfan.net/viewtopic.php?t=16526

 

Only a year younger than Weeks. He would probably strike out less, but doesn't look like he would offer any other advantage.

 

Please keep in mind that I'm not suggesting that Getz would be an upgrade over Weeks, but that Weeks was necessary to include in my proposal to acquire Bobby Jenks while trying to find a match with the White Sox.

[logan82]

colbyjack wrote:

Please keep in mind that I'm not suggesting that Getz would be an upgrade over Weeks, but that Weeks was necessary to include in my proposal to acquire Bobby Jenks while trying to find a match with the White Sox.

I thought your trade would make us roughly equal to what we would be without the trade. I think Cameron to whatever replaces him would be a big drop, but acquiring Vasquez would make up for most of that.

[DHonks]

If we deal Cameron, I'd still consider Weeks to CF as an option. Rickie's weaknesses continue to be fielding grounders, accuracy of throws, and turning double plays. His strengths are his speed/range and arm. Throw in that his college position was CF, and it's logical to me. It might also keep him from getting nicked up so much.

 

Throw in that it's rather easy to acquire a decent 2b. Robinson Cano or Mark Loretta types could be acquired. Ray Durham could be brought back with Iribarren/Hall splitting time. It's possible that a package could be built around Philip Hughes and Robinson Cano for Cameron and something else.

[nate82]

Throw in that it's rather easy to acquire a decent 2b. Robinson Cano or Mark Loretta types could be acquired. Ray Durham could be brought back with Iribarren/Hall splitting time. It's possible that a package could be built around Philip Hughes and Robinson Cano for Cameron and something else.

Cano was actually worse than Weeks defensively last year at 2B. I believe nearly all of the metrics for rating defense have Weeks ahead of Cano. Loretta would just be a stop gap until someone else could step in and I'm not sure I would want to spend the money necessary to go out and get Loretta.

[DHonks]

nate, my point was not to say Cano should be a target, but rather to say that if the Brewers deal Cameron, I'd prefer to move Weeks to CF and find a 2b. In the proposal I mentioned, Cano was not the primary player to acquire (Hughes was). I believe Cano hits lefty and has a different skillset than Rickie. Too bad we can't take Weeks' ability to walk and add it to Cano's ability to hit for avg. Both have good power.

 

I know nothing about Cano's defense. But I'm very comfortable saying that while Weeks' defense has gotten better, he's still the worst defensive 2nd baseman that I recall the Crew having. I miss the days of guys like Vina and Loretta. Weeks' motions remind me so much of Belliard that it's frustrating. Both have poor footwork and like to make "all arm" throws. The difference defensively was that while Belliard was lazy-looking, he could at least capably turn a double play and was more reliable on throws.

 

And remember, saying someone is worse than Rickie is all relative. Rickie has great range, but makes lots of mistakes. I'd rather have someone with less range that is more reliable (and someone that doesn't shy away from throws from the catcher to first on bunt plays). Durham looked very good at 2nd base because he made all the plays he was supposed to, he turned the double plays well, and didn't make many mistakes. Yet statistically he was supposedly below average.

[tigerbrew]

For me, I would trade for a regular 3B only if Hall can be traded first. If not, I would probably re-sign Branyan and promote Brad Nelson to the 25-man roster. Have Branyan and Hall platoon 3B, have Nelson as backup 1B and a useful left-handed pinch hitter. If Prince do get traded for pitching, I wouldn't mind starting Nelson at 1B for a couple of months and see how it goes.

[Hate those Rodents]

I have no interest in giving up any talent for a third baseman when it seems likely that Gamel or Green will effectively man the spot in 2010 at the latest. Seems like we have a need for an inexpensive stop gap at third and nothing more at this point.