Cameron to Yankees yet? Latest: Brewers apparently talking to free-agent CF's (in case); post 147-ish

[Tbadder]

I'd go Wang/Cameron even up. But then again I don't mind being laughed at.

[JohnBriggs12]

Do all you guys knocking this deal realize that Melvin had to think long and hard before even excercising Cameron's $10 million dollar option? Many of us thought that was a mistake. If the Yankees are indeed offering this package, I'd certainly take back my criticism of that move by Melvin.

 

Who's going to offer a top prospect or starter plus $10 million of salary relief for a 36 year old OF who hit under .250 and struck out over 140 times?

 

So Cabrera's not an All Star at 24 or Betemit is a utility guy? Cabrera hits right handed pitching pretty well: .275/.334/.393 and could be platooned in CF with either Kapler (if he's brought back) or Hall. He's certainly more accomplished as a hitter than Gwynn. Maybe he'll never be a star but he's certainly capable of .270/.330/.400.

 

Betemit is a nice replacement for Counsell. He's not a defensive whiz, but he's got pop and can play all 4 infield spots and he'll just be 27 next year. In 2006 Betemit at age 24 posted a .795 OPS. Where are they going to find a utility player like that? Heck he could end up starting at 3B.

 

You have to look at any potential deal for Cameron in the context of his contract and age. Cameron was a type B player after this season. At 36, he's unlikely to blossom into a type A, so let's not get carried away by the draft picks idea.

 

Wang or Kennedy? No way Yankees bite on that.

[PeaveyFury]

Do all you guys knocking this deal realize that Melvin had to think long and hard before even excercising Cameron's $10 million dollar option?

 

Do you know this as a fact? For all we know, Melvin was planning on picking up Cam's option from day 1 of the offseason.

[JohnBriggs12]

Do all you guys knocking this deal realize that Melvin had to think long and hard before even excercising Cameron's $10 million dollar option?

 

Do you know this as a fact? For all we know, Melvin was planning on picking up Cam's option from day 1 of the offseason.

Then why wait until the last day? He could have announced it then. It was reported that the Brewers held meetings on the topic. If he was so sure, why hold a meeting?

[kramnoj]

Am I the only one who has no interest in Kennedy either? I don't see him as anything more than a 4/5 starter. Yeah, he's cheap, but we have plenty of 4/5 starters on the team.

I don't understand this thinking. You need 4/5 guys to win, and with Kennedy, you would get 6 years of cost control, including the first 3 near minimum years. You wouldn't trade one year of an above average player for that? The Brewers have plenty of 4/5 guys now, but 3 years from now Bush will be expensive or will be gone, Suppan won't be here, McClung may have become valuable or may be out of the league, Villenueva won't be cheap anymore, etc. If Kennedy was the 5th SP next year, that means that McClung and Villenueva could be valuable members of the bullpen, allowing the Brewers to save money there as well. Of course, I think this is all moot, as I don't think he would be part of the deal.

 

Edit: Then why wait until the last day? He could have announced it then. It was reported that the Brewers held meetings on the topic. If he was so sure, why hold a meeting?

It's possible it was done as a PR move. Announcing one transaction at a time keeps the Brewers in the news each day. If you do multiple things per day, you may not get quite as much coverage per event. Just my speculation, but I think it's not unreasonable to think that the Brewers stage transactions when possible for the most media coverage.

[fondybrewfan]

IMO the drop in talent is to much to rationalize the loss Cam's $10M salary. The Brewers aren't rebuilding next year, they are trying to be competitive and I fail to see how trading Cameron for Cabrera and Betemit doesn't make us a worse team. We shouldn't trade for a couple switch hitters just because the Crew is so right handed dominant, they actually need to be good. Cameron's OPS against righties last year was nearly identical to Melky's best OPS against a righty in his career. Granted he is young and will probably improve but the fact remains. Add in the defensive downgrade and I don't see how this can be a positive

 

I also wouldn't say a lot of us were opposed to the Cameron option. It seems like a large majority agreed with the move.

[trwi7]

I don't understand this thinking. You need 4/5 guys to win, and with Kennedy, you would get 6 years of cost control, including the first 3 near minimum years. You wouldn't trade one year of an above average player for that? The Brewers have plenty of 4/5 guys now, but 3 years from now Bush will be expensive or will be gone, Suppan won't be here, McClung may have become valuable or may be out of the league, Villenueva won't be cheap anymore, etc. If Kennedy was the 5th SP next year, that means that McClung and Villenueva could be valuable members of the bullpen, allowing the Brewers to save money there as well. Of course, I think this is all moot, as I don't think he would be part of the deal.

Yes, but Cameron is above average and it's not like we don't have pitchers in the minors that will be ready in a couple of years that can be 4/5 starters. Periard, Anundsen, Welch, Wright etc. These guys could be 4/5 starters making the minimum so why trade an above average CF (something you need) for something you already have?

[And That]

Then why wait until the last day? He could have announced it then. It was reported that the Brewers held meetings on the topic. If he was so sure, why hold a meeting?

 

Why act until you have to? Say for some reason Sabathia wanted to re-sign right away, but signing him precluded the team from keeping Cameron around due to salary. And I'm sure they held meetings because spending $10 mil on one dude is kind of a big deal. It's not like Melvin walks around Brewers offices like a town cryer, calling transactions into existence at his whim.

 

It's a gigantic leap of logic to go from "they waited until the last day" to "Melvin had to think long and hard." You don't know.

 

Many of us thought that was a mistake.

 

Well, according to the Cameron thread approximately 3-5 of you though it was a mistake. The term "many" is often not associated with a small minority.

[kramnoj]

IMO the drop in talent is to much to rationalize the loss Cam's $10M salary. The Brewers aren't rebuilding next year, they are trying to be competitive and I fail to see how trading Cameron for Cabrera and Betemit doesn't make us a worse team.

 

I don't think Melvin is trading Cameron unless he believes he is getting reasonable talent in return and he has the ability to spend that money elsewhere to improve the team. I don't see Melvin trading Cameron just to get rid of the salary. If there is no deal that brings back enough, and there aren't any other fits in the FA market or trades to make good use of Cameron's salary, then stick with Cameron.

[ELCABALLO45]

I know everyone is hating on Melky (with reason) but if it happens lets just give the guy a chance.

 

He had a pretty good year 2 years ago at the age of 22. He is a good defender. And would be cheap for the next 3 years. Also getting out of New York and getting out of the AL won't hurt him at all either.

[JohnBriggs12]

IMO the drop in talent is to much to rationalize the loss Cam's $10M salary. The Brewers aren't rebuilding next year, they are trying to be competitive and I fail to see how trading Cameron for Cabrera and Betemit doesn't make us a worse team. We shouldn't trade for a couple switch hitters just because the Crew is so right handed dominant, they actually need to be good. Cameron's OPS against righties last year was nearly identical to Melky's best OPS against a righty in his career. Granted he is young and will probably improve but the fact remains. Add in the defensive downgrade and I don't see how this can be a positive

 

I also wouldn't say a lot of us were opposed to the Cameron option. It seems like a large majority agreed with the move.

fondybrewerfan,

 

Being from fondy originally myself, I hate disagreeing with you but the JS ran a poll on whether exercising Cameron's option was the correct move or not and 61% of the respondents thought it was the wrong move.

 

Cameron was horrible down the stretch last year. The Brewers scored 51 fewer runs in 2008 with Cameron than they scored in 2007 without him. Part of that reason is that adding another free swinging righthanded bat to a group that included Hall, Hart, Weeks, Braun, etc, made it that much easier for opposing pitchers. If you put any kind of average lefthanded bat in his place, it's going to make it easier for those other guys because the pitcher at least has to think more.

[Ennder]

Wang is definitely better than ok. He's been above league-average every year of his career. A number two starter at worst. Only thing is he is a big time ground ball pitcher, which is not a good mix with the Brewers' bad infield defense.

 

The Brewers probably have a better infield defense than the yankees. Weeks was better than cano last year, Hardy is way better than Jeter, Giambi is about as bad as Fielder. ARod is a step above what we have but not enough to offset Hardy vs Jeter most likely.

 

Being from fondy originally myself, I hate disagreeing with you but the JS ran a poll on whether exercising Cameron's option was the correct move or not and 61% of the respondents thought it was the wrong move

 

You don't honestly believe this proves anything? A poll of people at tango tigers blog showed that Cameron at $10M was a complete no brainer, he was worth over $12.5M. I'll trust people who actually know baseball over random fans who judge players by strike outs and RBI instead of understanding what really makes a player good or bad.

 

I'm not completely against this deal because people are underrating Cabrera and Betemit because they are Yankees, it generally cuts both ways. Cabrera is a much better player than Gwynn as an example. He is a roughly league average CF most likely unless there was a reason to expect the poor results from last year to happen again. Betemit and Hall would form a very nice 3B platoon. Obviously the pitcher in the equation makes a big difference but the drop from Cameron to Cabrera/Betemit is probably around 1-2 wins and we would control those wins for a longer duration and for less money. The extra cash could be used towards a SP for this season and in the end this could easily improve the team or at least break even for 2009 and improve it in 2010+.

 

It really depends on the upside of the pitcher in question though.

[Hate those Rodents]

A trade of Cameron saving us about 7-8 million depending on what we get in return, should not only not be judged until the offseason is concluded (see where the money savings goes) but it should not be judged until we see how Cam does with the Yankees vs. how whomever we get does with us in 2009.

[logan82]

Then why wait until the last day? He could have announced it then. It was reported that the Brewers held meetings on the topic. If he was so sure, why hold a meeting?

 

Melvin almost always waits until the last day to do anything. The Brewers under Melvin have a habit of not offering arbitration or picking up options until the last possible day.

[kramnoj]

so why trade an above average CF (something you need) for something you already have?

 

I tried to answer this question, but I'll repeat. The Brewers have a surplus of 4/5 pitchers right now, but don't have a full bullpen of good talent right now. At the minimum, if the Brewers get Kennedy, they slot him in at 5 and they immediately improve at one spot in the bullpen. They don't make this move unless they think Melky will bounce back, so they drop in value, but they have a player in CF for a couple of years until they get improvement from the minors. They get a utility player in Betemit for a reasonable amount. And they get millions of dollars to spend to improve elsewhere on the team. If you choose to frame it the way you are, sure it doesn't make sense. But this trade would have like 3-4 ripple effects on the Brewers, decreasing value in one spot, but hopefully improving in several other areas.

[brewjihad]

I hate disagreeing with you but the JS ran a poll on whether exercising Cameron's option was the correct move or not and 61% of the respondents thought it was the wrong move.

 

BCB ran a poll too-- 133 said it was the right move, 27 said it was the wrong move to exercise the option. Who would you trust more? Read the JS blog comments some time to understand the kind of people that are voting at JSonline.

 

Cameron was horrible down the stretch last year.

 

So were Hart, Hardy, even Braun for a while, Kendall... everyone except Fielder, Weeks and Durham were bad in September.

 

The Brewers scored 51 fewer runs in 2008 with Cameron than they scored in 2007 without him.

 

This has nothing to do with Braun dropping .120 points of OPS, Fielder losing .130, and Hart losing .130. This is undoubtedly because we replaced a Jenkins/Mench (.790, .746 OPS) platoon with Mike Cameron (.808). (Please Note: Sarcasm)

 

Part of that reason is that adding another free swinging righthanded bat to a group that included Hall, Hart, Weeks, Braun, etc, made it that much easier for opposing pitchers.

 

Adding Vlad Guerrero to the Brewers would make them even worse next year by this line of reasoning. Do you really think this?

 

If you put any kind of average lefthanded bat in his place, it's going to make it easier for those other guys because the pitcher at least has to think more.

 

No. No it would not. The Brewers would score less runs in this scenario.

[Oldcity]

Good point ennder on the Yankees defense. I didn't even think about it but you're right; they're bad.

[JohnBriggs12]

While the Yankees would never part with Wang for Cameron (unless you threw in Fielder), somebody mentioned that Wang "wasn't anything special".

 

Amazing comment on a guy with a 54-20 (.730) lifetime record and a career 3.79 ERA pitching in the AL. Yes he pitches for the Yankees, but there's not too many guys in the history of the game with a .730 winning percentage and a 3.79 ERA translates to around 3.55 in the NL which would put you in the top 10-12 among starters every year.

[Crewin06]

Do all you guys knocking this deal realize that Melvin had to think long and hard before even excercising Cameron's $10 million dollar option? Many of us thought that was a mistake. If the Yankees are indeed offering this package, I'd certainly take back my criticism of that move by Melvin.

 

Who's going to offer a top prospect or starter plus $10 million of salary relief for a 36 year old OF who hit under .250 and struck out over 140 times?

 

You have to look at any potential deal for Cameron in the context of his contract and age. Cameron was a type B player after this season. At 36, he's unlikely to blossom into a type A, so let's not get carried away by the draft picks idea.

Am I the only person that finds it very funny every time some only mentions a players negetive attributes when a poster wants to discredit a guy?

 

Yes he struck out 140 times. Yes, he had a low batting average.

 

But he also hit 25 home runs in 120 games (5th best in MLB for CF although he played in about 1/4 less games), walked at a very high rate, played gold glove calibur CF and was a model team mate.

 

But yeah the best way to describe him is as a player that hit under .250 and struck out 140 times.

[Ennder]

This deal could also open up another deal depending on the pitching prospect. How about Pitcher prospect + Weeks + mid level prospect for Brian Roberts with the savings in money. The lineup becomes

 

Roberts

Hardy

Braun

Fielder

Hart

Hall/Betemit

Cabrera/Kapler

Kendall

Pitcher

 

I could get behind something like that. Obviously it needs to be a real prospect for something like that to work though.

[JohnBriggs12]

"Adding Vlad Guerrero to the Brewers would make them even worse...Do you really think this?

 

You aren't really comparing Mike Cameron to Vlad Guerrero are you?

 

Sure you could call Guerrero a free swinger, but he does something Cameron, Hart, Hall, Weeks and to a lesser extent Braun don't do and that's make consistent hard contact.

 

It takes Guerrero 2 years to total the number of strikeouts Cameron got in 5 months with the Brewers. And yes, I believe one contributing factor to all those guys you mentioned OPS's dropping is the because the lineup did not have the required balance to it. Hitting is contagious as is not hitting. Add a guy to your lineup who swings and misses a lot, and that becomes contagious. Fielder in particular didn't see good pitches to hit, and always got the lefty specialist late in games, because there was no need to use that lefty specialist anywhere else.

[homer]

I don't think anyone disputes the need for a lefty but at what cost? Is a Cabrera/Kapler platoon worth more wins than Cameron at $10million?

[JohnBriggs12]

Do all you guys knocking this deal realize that Melvin had to think long and hard before even excercising Cameron's $10 million dollar option? Many of us thought that was a mistake. If the Yankees are indeed offering this package, I'd certainly take back my criticism of that move by Melvin.

 

Who's going to offer a top prospect or starter plus $10 million of salary relief for a 36 year old OF who hit under .250 and struck out over 140 times?

 

You have to look at any potential deal for Cameron in the context of his contract and age. Cameron was a type B player after this season. At 36, he's unlikely to blossom into a type A, so let's not get carried away by the draft picks idea.

Am I the only person that finds it very funny every time some only mentions a players negetive attributes when a poster wants to discredit a guy?

 

Yes he struck out 140 times. Yes, he had a low batting average.

 

But he also hit 25 home runs in 120 games (5th best in MLB for CF although he played in about 1/4 less games), walked at a very high rate, played gold glove calibur CF and was a model team mate.

 

But yeah the best way to describe him is as a player that hit under .250 and struck out 140 times.

 

When another poster appears to overvalue a player in your mind, you need bring up the negatives to help make your case. I've never said Cameron is a bad player. Just that I don't think at this stage of his career his worth specifically to the Brewers, who have similar players with similar weaknesses, is $10 million unless of course his presence is the deciding factor in Sabathia taking a substantial discount of $10s of millions and signing with the Brewers.

 

I want the Brewers to put the best possible team on the field like all of you. To me allocating $10 million of your budget to Cameron is not the way you do that, though others obviously think differently.

 

Put yourself in Jim Skaalen's shoes last season. You've got a group of very talented young hitters but as happens your young hitters often tend to be impatient or start overswinging. So you try to drill them on basics as swinging at good pitches, taking the ball the other way etc. during BP. Into the batters' box steps a 15 year major league highly paid respected veteran team leader, who at 35 is still very talented but still prone to the same mistakes the young guys make. Who are the young guys going to emulate? The highly paid veteran that's who, not the fatherly hitting coach.

[PilprinBuddha]

Melky and Betimet don't improve our team enough to make the trade (IMHO) unless it allowed us to sign or trade for a different $ player. IMHO Cameron will not be dealt unless Sabathia signs elsewhere - they are buds - from what I have read.

 

Now if we could invilve Suppan in the deal and get back an arm like Kennedy, then we might be on to something.

[ELCABALLO45]

This deal could also open up another deal depending on the pitching prospect. How about Pitcher prospect + Weeks + mid level prospect for Brian Roberts with the savings in money. The lineup becomes

Brian Roberts http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/frown.gif. Man I want that guy.

 

But back to this deal. The more I think about it the more I think it would make sense. And im the biggest Cam Boogie supporter on this board.

 

Also, Cameron and Sabathia are best buds, Cameron to the Yankees... Sabathia to the....