Dark horses for potential Fielder destinations

[twobrewers]

You fellas have moved very far off topic.

[sheetskout]

Very true, which is why you trade Fielder. He was not 1 of the Brewers strengths this year. When defense is factored in, it negated most of his offense. Getting a 1B who can catch a ball makes all 12 pitchers better.

No offense, but this is sooooo untrue it isn't even funny. Fielder was a 30-100 hitter which puts him in at least the top tier in the NL. Now go and divide 18 (errors) by 1475 (total chances) and you'll get .988 (fielding percentage). What you are saying that a 1.2% chance of error negates 34 home runs and 102 RBI?

 

That's defense overvalued.....

[jjfanec]

Not saying I agree that his defense negates most of his offense but it definitely negates some. You used Princes fielding percentage to show that he does not make errors that often but his numbers are padded because he get credit for every throw he catches. He was tied for last in MLB for fielding percentage among first baseman. That does not even factor in how many throws he does not dig and balls he does not get to. He is second to last in Zone Rating for 1B, so he is a bad fielder.

That being said it does not in my mind negate a ton of his value but it keeps him from being at the same level as other elite 1B like Tex, Pujols, and Berkman.

His fielding problems are a reason to not lock him up long term and to look into his trade value because he is only going to get worse as a fielder in my opinion.

[Ennder]

No offense, but this is sooooo untrue it isn't even funny. Fielder was a 30-100 hitter which puts him in at least the top tier in the NL. Now go and divide 18 (errors) by 1475 (total chances) and you'll get .988 (fielding percentage). What you are saying that a 1.2% chance of error negates 34 home runs and 102 RBI?

 

That's defense overvalued.....

I won't say it negated most but it did negate a lot of it. Fielder was not one of the 5 most valuable players on the team last year. Sheets, Sabathia, Hardy, Cameron, Braun were all definitely more valuable. How much the defense negates the offense really depends on which stats you believe in.

[Weirdos19]

No offense, but this is sooooo untrue it isn't even funny. Fielder was a 30-100 hitter which puts him in at least the top tier in the NL. Now go and divide 18 (errors) by 1475 (total chances) and you'll get .988 (fielding percentage). What you are saying that a 1.2% chance of error negates 34 home runs and 102 RBI?

 

That's defense overvalued.....

I won't say it negated most but it did negate a lot of it. Fielder was not one of the 5 most valuable players on the team last year. Sheets, Sabathia, Hardy, Cameron, Braun were all definitely more valuable. How much the defense negates the offense really depends on which stats you believe in.

You are kidding right?? Everybody on the team outside of CC and Prince were choking down the stretch. Prince carried the team over the second part of September.

Saying Sheets and CC were more valuable is laughable. When CC showed up, Sheets bailed. We only had one ace all year. Sheets in the first half and CC in the second. Together, they were more valuable.

Prince was the offensive MVP. Since he was the only effective lefty in the lineup, he got teams to yank starters for their best lefty specialist, then Hart and Cam got to hit off either that lefty (when Branyan was behind them), or a right handed reliever.

 

You can say what you want about Braun. I think he's great. But the reason he can't hit clean up is because he chases a ton of bad pitches. With a patient Fielder behind him, the pitcher can't afford to waste pitches to Braun. Those innings turn into 25 pitch innings when that happens.

 

You guys want to trade Prince when he led the team in OBP? Our biggest glaring weakness?? Who are gonna be our left handed sticks?

[Weirdos19]

I really don't want to harp on this and seem like I'm a jerk. But here's the Brewers' team September OPS:

 

Prince: .998

2b platoon: .950

Hardy: .751

Braun: .660

Cameron: .510

Hall: .500

Hart: .437

 

Even with CC here, we don't make the playoffs without Prince.

[Ennder]

The season is longer than just September...

[jjfanec]

I really don't want to harp on this and seem like I'm a jerk. But here's the Brewers' team September OPS:

 

Prince: .998

2b platoon: .950

Hardy: .751

Braun: .660

Cameron: .510

Hall: .500

Hart: .437

 

Even with CC here, we don't make the playoffs without Prince.

The MVP is not determined in one month. Prince had a great September but without CC it would not have mattered. His best month was well below Braun's best two months. Using the argument that Prince had a good September so he was the team's MVP puts way too much stock in one month it also does not take into account the great months Braun, Hardy and Cameron had before that to keep the team in contention when Prince was not doing much. It does not take into account how Sheets kept the rotation together until CC got there.

You said when CC showed up Ben bailed but the reality is when Braun was showing up Prince really was not and vice-versa. We do not the playoffs without any of those guys.

If you look at from strictly OPS Braun was the 4th best among NL OF. Fielder was 4th best among NL 1B. They ending with overall pretty similar years, although Braun would have easily jumped higher had he not had the rib injury.

[nate82]

A trade of Cameron and Fielder to the Yankees for Cano, Hughes, Kennedy, and Mark Melancon would be a fair deal for the Brewers. That still wouldn't fix the OBP problems though and the Brewers would have to go into free agency and get someone to play 1B and get OBP. Adam Dunn or Pat Burrell would be likely candidates for the 1B spot. I would prefer Dunn over Burrell though only because Dunn is a left handed bat.

 

This also means that the Brewers would be giving up on Weeks at 2B which it sounds like they maybe doing anyways. Moving Weeks to the OF or trading Weeks may happen this year or next year.

 

Rosenthal said this "Melvin said Escobar will play second base as well as short in spring training, working with the team's new bench coach, former major league second baseman Willie Randolph." in his recent article.

 

I don't see the Brewers trading Fielder or Hardy this off season though. Nor do I see the Brewers trading Weeks this year either Cameron I could see but I doubt it happens. It would be to hard to find an equivalent replacement for him both defensively and offensively.

 

But if the Brewers did do the above trade and signed Dunn to a 4 year $60-70 million contract the lineup would be alright and the rotation would be about what we had in the beginning of this year.

 

Lineup:

1. Weeks CF

2. Hart RF

3. Braun LF

4. Dunn 1B

5. Hardy SS

6. Cano 2B

7. Hall/Branyan/Lamb 3B

8. Kendall C

 

Bench

Hall/Branyan/Lamb

Iribarren

Rivera

Kapler

Gwynn

 

Rotation

1. Gallardo

2. Parra

3. Bush

4. Hughes

5. Suppan

 

Bullpen

Riske

McClung

Villanueva

Kennedy

Shouse

Stetter

DeFilece

[Weirdos19]

I really don't want to harp on this and seem like I'm a jerk. But here's the Brewers' team September OPS:

 

Prince: .998

2b platoon: .950

Hardy: .751

Braun: .660

Cameron: .510

Hall: .500

Hart: .437

 

Even with CC here, we don't make the playoffs without Prince.

The MVP is not determined in one month. Prince had a great September but without CC it would not have mattered. His best month was well below Braun's best two months. Using the argument that Prince had a good September so he was the team's MVP puts way too much stock in one month it also does not take into account the great months Braun, Hardy and Cameron had before that to keep the team in contention when Prince was not doing much. It does not take into account how Sheets kept the rotation together until CC got there.

You said when CC showed up Ben bailed but the reality is when Braun was showing up Prince really was not and vice-versa. We do not the playoffs without any of those guys.

If you look at from strictly OPS Braun was the 4th best among NL OF. Fielder was 4th best among NL 1B. They ending with overall pretty similar years, although Braun would have easily jumped higher had he not had the rib injury.

I do understand your points. But I also think that when the chips were down and we didn't think we'd make the playoffs, Prince was the man. Also, Prince had little protection in September.

 

Talk to the Mets about how September is just another month.

[Ennder]

Talk to the Mets about how September is just another month.

 

If they had won 2 more games in April they would have made the playoffs, so maybe April isn't just another month?

[trwi7]

If they had won 2 more games in April they would have made the playoffs, so maybe April isn't just another month?

Actually, since they played us in April it could have only been one game. So Sheets beat Santana in April. That game ended up being the difference between playoffs and no playoffs. Sheets = clutch -- Santana = unclutch. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Never Outhustled]

I really don't want to harp on this and seem like I'm a jerk. But here's the Brewers' team September OPS:

 

OPS is the only value a player has to a team? OPS is a good way to quickly compare players if there average defenders, but thats not even close to being true for Fielder. Fielders defense cost the Brewers wins in September just like it did April through August.

 

You guys want to trade Prince when he led the team in OBP? Our biggest glaring weakness??

Teams have won big without scoring a ton of runs. Having a 1B that can catch makes all 12 pitchers better. The Brewers finished 2nd in team ERA, but would have won more if they had finished 1st in team ERA.

 

Lets not forget, we're not cutting Prince, the idea is to trade him for a quality starting pitcher. I think it will be easier to add a decent 1B than it will be to try to add a #2 type starting pitcher without dealing Prince.

 

Also, the 1B we could aquire for almost nothing is Nick Johnson. Johnson is only mediocre defensively, but thats significantly better than Prince, and Johnson is an even better OBA guy. Mat Gamel can learn 1B at AAA, and I believe he's a major impact bat. Every other player who put up numbers like Gamel did in the Southern League turned out to be a superstar. Gamel doesn't play 3B well, and the OF is full, so 1B makes a ton of sense for him and the Brewers.

[homer]

How many wins (plural) did Prince cost us in September?

[Postseason2006]

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8782170/Brewers'-veterans-could-be-dealt-for-pitching-help

 

IMO, this makes sense for many reasons. If these two players go to New York in Fielder and Cameron, CC ends up in New York. This allows us to get the Yankees #1 pick also with Fielder going here because in no way do they pursue Texeira.

 

Then the Brewers are free and clear of some money allowing us to pursue someone like Dempster. I would also try and get Suppan involved in the deal to New York if possible.

[Hammer]

This is the deal that I was speaking with a bunch of guys at bowling about last night. Prince, Cameron and Suppan to NY for Cabrera, Cano, Hughes, Kennedy and another pitching prospect in the low or high A range. Do the Brewers get a stud back? Nope. Do they get value and clear the albatross that is Suppan? Yep...

 

This would allow the team to move Weeks to CF like they should have done a couple of years ago. It would also clear room for the 1st baseman of the future...Mr. Mat Gamel. Having a full spring training should be enough to get him acclimated to the position. Yes, there is still a hole at 3rd but there are options (giving Hardy an extension and moving him to 3rd, Escobar taking over at SS...signing a stopgap for Tyler G)...

 

Ok, now you can all rip this apart.

[Ennder]

Cano may very well be worse defensively than Weeks, he was statistically last year by quite a bit. Cabrera wouldn't have anywhere to play for us with that swap so not really sure how that would work out. I'm not convinced Kennedy is any better than Suppan so I guess it really comes down to how good Hughes really is.

 

I dunno, I wouldn't be happy with that trade but I'm not going to say it wouldn't work out either. It would certainly clear some cash to be used elsewhere though. No way in heck I want Escobar starting in the majors this year and Hardy is above average at SS so not sure it is a good idea to move him until we are forced to.

[homer]

I think Weeks' would be terrible in CF.....yes, maybe even worse than 2B.

[southpaw121505]

I like that Hammer, we'd have so much financial flexibility, not to mention more cheap players that can help. I like moving Weeks to CF and lower in the order, allowing Cano to leadoff. I think I'd rather go hard after a good 3B, maybe using Cabrera as a chip. If you dont flip Cabrera he'd be nice insurance in case Weeks doesnt stick in center. The right side of your infield is improved defensively(although I'm not sure how good Cano is, thinking he's average defensively, correct me if I'm wrong.). Gallardo, Parra, Hughes and Kennedy would excite me as a young core for a staff. We'd have a lot of available funds to throw at Texiera, and we wouldnt be competing with the Yankees.....

[sheetskout]

Whatever happened to the sentiment that these guys were going to be brought up together and that we'd make an effort to keep them together? I'll say it one more time. Unless the offer is truly outstanding, dealing Fielder is a mistake.

[southpaw121505]

Not sure that sentiment is realistic, DM said himself there will be some consitant turnover to keep the team competitive.

[twobrewers]

The only proposal that made any sense to me involved Fielder to Boston for Bucholz and Ellsbury. (We would solve our CF, Lead-off, and pitching problems)

 

Although I would imagine some soft of Lowell and maybe Bill Hall or Suppan would need to be included in that deal.

[Ennder]

I see no compelling reason to trade Fielder until next year but if they do it then oh well. I don't want him signing with the Brewers long term though, he really does need to DH.

[sheetskout]

The only proposal that made any sense to me involved Fielder to Boston for Bucholz and Ellsbury. (We would solve our CF, Lead-off, and pitching problems)

 

Although I would imagine some soft of Lowell and maybe Bill Hall or Suppan would need to be included in that deal.

Fielder for Ellsbury and Bucholz would qualify as an outstanding offer for me. But I truly doubt Boston would bite. Ellsbury seems to becoming a fan-favorite in Boston and Bucholz is still holding on to the no-hitter stigma.

 

I would be down though....

[southpaw121505]

I really can't see Boston doing that either. Why wouldn't they just sign Texeira and keep Bucholz and Ellsbury?