Cameron's option picked up (see reply #128)

[MNBrew]

I'm not suggesting it's a perfect solution, but...

 

The Brewers did not hesitate to use Hart in CF at times before the Bill Hall experiment and he was one of the best options that way on the team at that time. I don't think they're totally scared to use him there. But I think they're quite aware that his skills lend themselves defensively best to RF, as well as that they're definitely better off with a legit MLB-caliber starting CF manning the position.

 

Hart is also among the best athletes on the team. The guy's a 5-tool player. Even when his offense went to heck, his defense was still very solid. The guy makes plays and not just the easiest ones. I do find some of the questioning of his defense in the various discussions somewhere between odd and frustrating. Why? Because a few odd plays here and there get re-hashed so often in these discussions that by the time the winter's mostly over, a many folks on this site are going to be completely convinced that he's a worse defensive player than Jose Canseco was by the end of his career (or perhaps the 2nd coming of Izzy Alcantara). It's happened before on this site with other players and especially with Hart's offensive slump in September, some folks here inevitably will get carried away and start deciding that he has major holes in all aspects of his game and he's therefore a better trade chip than long-term member of the Brewers. Everything else positive in his whole development surely must've been a fluke.

 

I understand the logical notions of selling high and considerations re: the ease of replaceability (if that's a word). Maybe I get tired of some of the selective revisionist history that goes on here at times. An equivalent overreacting or lost-perspective response would've been to suggest that because Ryan Howard couldn't hardly buy a hit in the first two rounds of the playoffs -- we all saw it, after all -- he's clearly not a clutch player, can't contribute when it counts, and the Phillies are better off playing Greg Dobbs or Lou Dobbs or Lah-ti-Dobbs at 1B and trading Howard to re-stock their pipeline of highest-end prospects since this is surely a new career trend as opposed to a simple, poorly timed, multi-series slump.

 

Melvin has been working to get the guy signed to a long-term contract. First, that's no coincidence. Hart's success has not been a fluke. Maybe the slump will actually create some doubt in Hart's mind that he'd get top dollar elsewhere and he'd be more inclined to consider long-term alternatives with the Brewers. Who knows?

 

I'm sorry if this comes off as excessive grumbling. The negative emotional reaction to Hart's lousy last month or two is totally justified. It's just not a smart basis for making long-term decisions about Hart or most any other player, especially when there's a significant amount of mitigating information fairly readily available.

[phxMILWfan]

Ok you can go ahead and disprove my post but I've always felt that Corey is an average defender, slightly above average at best. I think people overrate his defense because of his size and it looks like he should be slow. I wasn't impressed with his defense after the all-star break. It seemed like he lacked hustle and accepted balls bouncing in front of him when he could have made a diving play. I don't think he belongs in CF at all. I'm afraid it would be one of those situations with Cameron where you don't know what you had until it's gone. Hart deserves a chance to come back in the spring fresh. See if he can regain his first half form of last year before we go trading him for lesser value.

[polwonks]

How about David DeJesus? I know- another left-fielder, but...

[nate82]

How about David DeJesus? I know- another left-fielder, but...

DeJesus has played CF he would be a downgrade from Cameron defensively in CF and he is a popular player around here.

[PeaveyFury]

Ok you can go ahead and disprove my post but I've always felt that Corey is an average defender, slightly above average at best.

 

I agree completely. I'm somewhat surprised that there are still so many suggestions for moving Corey to CF after a very mediocre year defensively in right. Sure, he can handle it in a pinch or for a DL stint or something like that, but I sure as heck don't want him out there for 150+ games. And yes, the downgrade from Cameron to him would be colossal.

[MNBrew]

As much as Cameron's lower BA and high K rates drive me nuts, DeJesus' career OBP is only .360 to Cameron's .340. That's a notable difference but not huge. Cameron's career OPS is slightly higher (.788 to .782). Cameron's career walk rate is much better (.127 BB/AB to .094). Cameron is just plain faster (3x as many SBs/AB and a 79% SB success rate vs. 56%). Cameron has better power and is superior defensively.

 

A switch to David DeJesus is mostly a lateral move if not a bit of an overall drop off. It would accomplish three things: higher BA, lower K rate, & another LH bat. All in all, as much as I'm not totally in love with Cameron's total game, I think he offers the Brewers more than DeJesus does unless the point simply is to make a change, the result of which is a deck that at most is only as stacked as the current one, although perhaps slightly less so.

 

(sorry - multiple edits for grammar & flow of thought)

[endaround]

The only reason to be interested in DeJesus is the reason why he would be costly to get, he's cheap for the next three years. But he isn't as good as Cameron next season due to Cameron being superior defensively.

[fleehaw]

The only reason to be interested in DeJesus is the reason why he would be costly to get, he's cheap for the next three years. But he isn't as good as Cameron next season due to Cameron being superior defensively.

I wouldn't say that's the only reason. He's a top-of-the-lineup left-handed bat (that hits lefties well), will take a walk, and doesn't strike out all that much. He's exactly the type of hitter the Brewers are supposedly looking for and probably one of the reasons he's the topic of discussion as much as he is. Also, it's conceivable that his stats would greatly improve when he's batting in front of Braun & Fielder as opposed to Guillen, Butler, Gordon, etc. The acquisition of DeJesus would alter the makeup of the lineup, that is adding a higher avg, higher OBP, lower K guy.

 

DeJesus does have his warts. He seems to be injury prone. Not the huge, season-ending injuries, but the nagging, one or two times a year on the DL injuries. I think he's averaged about 120-130 games a year for the past few. He would be a downgrade to Cameron defensively in CF, but he'd probably be a lateral move defensively in RF if he replaced Hart.

[MNBrew]

He's a top-of-the-lineup left-handed bat (that hits lefties well), will take a walk, and doesn't strike out all that much.

Fleehaw, DeJesus walks less than Cameron. Cameron's career walk rate is better than DeJesus' (.127 BB/AB to .094 for DeJesus).

[JJHardy7]

going into last year people thought we had an 85-90 win team. We lost Sheets and that is it and probably will have a few upgrades here and there and now we are going to struggle to reach .500?

 

The offense underperformed last year almost across the board and I expect us to score more runs, give up more runs and still be in that 85-90 win range even without Sheets and Sabathia as long as Gallardo/Parra/Bush stay healthy.

 

I guess I'm in the camp that this team will struggle to be .500 if CC and Sheets are gone. You're right if the offense shows some growth they should be fine. I'm just sick of trying to think some of these young guys will figure it out for the whole year. After Braun, Prince, and JJ I don't have a ton of faith that guys will improve. I'm sure the Brewers will make other moves, but if they didn't losing CC and Sheets hurts a ton. They won a ton of one run games and if the offense doesn't show that they're taking the next step they could lose a lot more one run games/not have one run games.

 

Back to the thread topic...I wasn't a huge fan of the Cameron signing due to the suspension and the fact that I thought it's hard to rely on a guy that old. Cam proved me wrong and I think they should pick up the option. He's not perfect for the offense the way it's structured, but I just don't see how the Brewers are going to find that 'perfect' player without over paying someone or trading some prospects.

[Postseason2006]

Greg Vaughn wrote:

 

I truley don't understand why people keep giving Cameron a pass in the NLDS. The play was routine...plain and simple.......he dropped it.

 

He is a solid defender but please take off your Camgogs.

I agree with everything you say. People think because he's an improvement over Bill Hall, makes him all world. He misjudged the ball in the first place. And that play was THE ball game after everyone's lovable loser, ricKiE wEEKs dropped the ball at first. Sveum should've had Durham playing or Counsell on defense alone in game 1. Yet, we can keep talking about what a "great" hitter he was. Problem is his defense on routine plays CATCHING and THROWING the ball was downright pathetic.

 

Second, Cameron hit like a hack to end September and in the 4 game series against Philly. I aso believe his age having to do with his offense going south the end the year considering he only laced em up for 120 games.

[giffted1]

Problem is his defense on routine plays CATCHING and THROWING the ball was downright pathetic.

If rare mishaps make one pathetic defensively, you'll be hard pressed to find any player that isn't pathetic defensively.

Second, Cameron hit like a hack to end September and in the 4 game series against Philly. I aso believe his age having to do with his offense going south the end the year considering he only laced em up for 120 games.

Overall, Braun stunk in September as well...what a hack. And JJ stunk in April...he must be a hack. CC stunk in April and October...why do so many people want to sign that bum?

 

It would be much easier just to say you don't like Cameron than to hunt for small samples and individual plays that support your claims.

[Ennder]

I don't have a ton of faith that guys will improve. I'm sure the Brewers will make other moves, but if they didn't losing CC and Sheets hurts a ton. They won a ton of one run games and if the offense doesn't show that they're taking the next step they could lose a lot more one run games/not have one run game

 

But we didn't really 'lose' Sabathia when you are talking about the start of last year because we didn't have him. The same people who thought we were an 85-90 win team last year suddenly think we are a .500 team and the only major player not returning from last years opening roster is Sheets. I think the rest of the roster improves enough to offset a good part of losing Sheets.

[trwi7]

The same people who thought we were an 85-90 win team last year suddenly think we are a .500 team and the only major player not returning from last years opening roster is Sheets.

People that were predicting 85-90 wins were predicting we would get there with a Sheets/Gallardo front of the rotation. Now we're going to have a Gallardo rotation. How many wins would it cost us going from Sheets to McClung or Villanueva for a year?

[Ennder]

People that were predicting 85-90 wins were predicting we would get there with a Sheets/Gallardo front of the rotation. Now we're going to have a Gallardo rotation. How many wins would it cost us going from Sheets to McClung or Villanueva for a year?

 

Not 9 wins, that is for sure. There will likely be other improvements in the team as well even if it is only young players gaining a little OBP and a little fielding experience here and there.

[fleehaw]

Fleehaw, DeJesus walks less than Cameron. Cameron's career walk rate is better than DeJesus' (.127 BB/AB to .094 for DeJesus).

You are absolutely right. I guess I should have clarified more. I wasn't comparing Cameron to DeJesus. I was just saying that DeJesus brings many of the things the Brewers are supposedly looking for to the table (lefty, hits for avg., walks a decent rate, doesn't K that much, etc), not just being a bargain monetarily speaking.

[Milltownhooker]

Cameron option rumor CC related. Atlanta reporter talks of 4 yr 100 million dollar potential offer by brewers.

http://www.mlbtraderumors...8/10/cc-sabathia-rum.html

[RyDogg66]

A 4 year 100 million dollar deal for CC would be a decent move. With pitchers, it is length more than money that I am concerned with. Sure, that 25 million in the 4th year could cripple us if CC tanks, but not as much as 18 million in years five, six and seven for a guy like Zito.

[Invader3K]

I bet the Brewers would have to include some kind of option for a fifth year.

 

Still, I think 4 years at 25 million per year would be amazingly awesome. If retaining Cameron is necessary to re-sign CC Sabathia, it's pretty much a no-brainer that you keep Cameron for one more year to get CC for four.

 

The thing about CC is that the Brewers could probably easily trade him after that third year if needed. If he keeps performing how he has, it might be considered a bargain of a salary by then.

[endaround]

CC is going to get $25 m for 6 years at least so I don't see this as some huge offer.

[Ennder]

CC is going to get $25 m for 6 years at least so I don't see this as some huge offer.

 

It is enough to show the team is serious and lead to negotiations at least. Not like a total lowball offer that clearly tells him they don't want him back.

[endaround]

Well it is a serious offer, but not something that will make Sabathia hurry up and sign a 4 year deal. Add $20m onto it for Sabathia to take 4 years.

[TheCrew07]

True enough, but I don't see anyone walking away from another 40 or so million garunteed. I'm all about hometown loyalty, but that's an incredible amount of money.

[mothershipconnection]

I'd go six years with CC only if the last two years are options based on 180 IP the previous season. I have enough faith in CC that if he's healthy at 33, he'll still be a very good pitcher.

[razzzorsharp]

If you offer CC a six year contract, what do you think the chances are that he will need tommy john surgery in that timespan?