Cameron's option picked up (see reply #128)

[nate82]

There just isn't some magical .370 OBP full time CF out there that we can replace him with easily. I'm not even sure there is a .350 OBP guy. The best way to upgrade the team OBP is probably going to be to find a 3B which we need regardless.

There were only 9 players with an OBP of .350 or higher in MLB who played CF in 2008 none of them would be available without giving up premium prospects. Only one player in the top 9 players who had an OBP of .350 or higher would be available and that would be Gregor Blanco and I'm not sure Blanco's defense would make up for his offensive deficiencies.

[Crew2323]

I'd like to see his option picked up. I don't think there are many better CF's out there via Free Agency. TwoLiveBrew's tidbit changed my outlook on Cameron, not that it was bad before. Thanks for that info! It does appear, however, that if Cameron's option is declined, he may not be unemployed for long.

 

Yankees Interested In Cameron

[brwrsfan]

It just shows that even if we pick up the option, Cameron could most likely easily be moved. He's solid defensively, does provide some pop and is signed to a short, reasonable contract. I'd pick up the option no matter what. If it turns out we don't need/want him, flip him to the Yankees or another team, even if it's just a low level prospect.

[nate82]

Yankees Interested In Cameron

Thanks for reminding me why I don't go and look at that blog anymore if I have to read another stupid comment about Cameron and his K's I'm going to have no hair left real soon here.

 

Can the Brewers decline Cameron's option and offer him arbitration? I wonder if the Yankees would accept a trade of Cameron for Kennedy and Gardner. Then you would just have to platoon Gardner and Kapler in CF and you have another Dave Bush like pitcher in Kennedy. I'm not sure a Gardner and Kapler platoon would be any better than a Gwynn and Kapler platoon though.

[jjfanec]

. There were only 9 players with an OBP of .350 or higher in MLB who played CF in 2008 none of them would be available without giving up premium prospects. Only one player in the top 9 players who had an OBP of .350 or higher would be available and that would be Gregor Blanco and I'm not sure Blanco's defense would make up for his offensive deficiencies.

I brought him up a bit ago but Coco Crisp had an OBP of .344 and is not completely void of power. I know people will debate K's and their overall negative value, but on a team that strikes out a ton a guy like Crisp would help some. His OBP is not above .350 but it is close and we would not have to give up a premium prospect for him.

[Ennder]

Here is a sheet(link at the bottom) I made up a few weeks back looking at strikeouts and other stats vs runs scored. What you see is good strikeout teams will rank all over the place in runs. Good OPS teams rank almost where they do for runs. To me that means that srikeouts have very little to do with runs and we should be looking at OPS instead.

 

Link

The strikeout graph basically looks like a plot of random data. Someone linked a chart showing correlation of a bunch of advanced metrics and OPS came out pretty decently in them. Things like eqa and 1.8*obp+slg did even better. Improving OBP is the easiest way to improve our runs scored probably but just cutting down on strike outs has only a little bit to do with OBP.

[kramnoj]

His OBP is not above .350 but it is close and we would not have to give up a premium prospect for him

 

You wouldn't have to give up a premium prospect, but you would need to give up a prospect. I'd have to know who the prospect is before making a definitive statement, but I think I would rather save the prospect and pay Cameron the extra $3.75M over what Crisp is guaranteed. I think Crisp could have been had cheaper going into 2008. With Ellsbury declining this past year, I'm not sure the Red Sox are motivated to move Crisp.

[Crew2323]

Thanks for reminding me why I don't go and look at that blog anymore if I have to read another stupid comment about Cameron and his K's I'm going to have no hair left real soon here.

Sorry Nate. I posted it merely for the update and link TH provided, not the comments, trust me! I didn't read the comments. I stopped doing that a long time ago.

[Ennder]

You wouldn't have to give up a premium prospect, but you would need to give up a prospect

 

I'm not 100% sure how it works but wouldn't we get a draft pick for Cameron leaving the team as well?

[kramnoj]

You wouldn't have to give up a premium prospect, but you would need to give up a prospect

 

I'm not 100% sure how it works but wouldn't we get a draft pick for Cameron leaving the team as well?

 

Cameron is projected by this guy: http://tigers-thoughts.bl...ected-elias-rankings.html to be a type B, so I think the Brewers would get a sandwich pick if the Yankees (or any team) signs Cameron. That is certainly something to consider.

[RyDogg66]

Every comment in the jsonline blog is negative concerning Cameron. It is almost as if they have no clue about baseball.

 

Also, if we did decline his option, could we still offer him arbitration? Im not sure we could. Not that I would want to. I'd rather offer him arby next year when he is a type A free agent.

[yoyo49]

Crew2323,

 

Just a tidbit of the type of comments you would read in the JS blog: "Hall and Weeks for Ichiro". I think I will follow your lead and stop reading the comments.

 

As far as Cameron, it is unfair to downgrade him simply because he is one of the "group of RH who strike out too much". The problem as a whole needs to be addressed, but can be addressed in other areas of need (3B and 2B). Cameron is who is he is--power hitter, solid defender, good speed, high strikeout rate, high walk rate, decent average--and that type of player is a bargain at 10 million for one year.

[phxMILWfan]

Every comment in the jsonline blog is negative concerning Cameron. It is almost as if they have no clue about baseball.

 

Also, if we did decline his option, could we still offer him arbitration? Im not sure we could. Not that I would want to. I'd rather offer him arby next year when he is a type A free agent.

I read the comments then came on here to see if anyone else read that junk. I'm so glad this site is here for knowledgable baseball fans.

[yoyo49]

the second part of that comment wasn't directed at you Crew2323--just a general thought for the nay-sayers

[And That]

Assuming Cameron is a Type B player, we would get a compensation pick between the first and second round if:

 

-The Brewers decline Cameron's option, they offer him arbitration, he declines arbitration, he signs elsewhere.

 

-The Brewers decline Cameron's option, he signs elsewhere before 12/1.

[yoyo49]

And That,

 

Do those scenarios differ at all for Type A players? I know the first one is the same, but how does the second scenario work for Type A players?

[phxMILWfan]

I know that things would be different if a team like the Yankees were to sign CC, Sheets, and Cameron, or really any free agents greater in value than Cameron. Correct me if I'm wrong(probably am) but then Cameron's value as far as a Type B player could be as low as a Third round pick or a Second round sandwich pick.

[Fatter than Joey]

Clancy, neither Ryan Braun nor Corey Hart (I'm not even sure which one you're alluding to) will ever play another inning of third base in their pro careers, unless the game is out of hand or we hire LaRussa.

 

Right please refer to the chart below....

 

http://images.yuku.com/image/png/f83151927cf1eb100aaf32d715fce74394be5ba.png

[jjfanec]

What would it cost to get a guy like Crisp? He was rumored for Angel Pagan of the Mets earlier in the year. I am just not sure what we would have to trade. He is the only guy that makes sense to me outside of Cameron, because as someone said one of the best ways to increase runs is to increase the amount of guys on base and Crisp looks like he could do that. He also frees up a little money to go after other guys to fix this team, and we have an $8 million team option for 2010 if he does well, if not we cut our losses.

[smbrewersfan15]

It's too bad there just isn't another option out there that's better than Cameron. What alot of people I've talked to fail to realize is that Cameron makes the hard plays look easy. I can be sure that not many players would have even layed a glove on the ball hit to CF in NLDS that Cameron dropped. Just the fact that he got to the ball shocked me. Defense is terribly underrated by alot of people. Cameron will be fine in CF in 2009 if the only other option is TGJ. I too stopped reading the comments over at JS Blogs because there are many who seem to criticize no matter what the team does. At least here, we can come together and have an intelligent conversation about stuff.

[And That]

I know that things would be different if a team like the Yankees were to sign CC, Sheets, and Cameron, or really any free agents greater in value than Cameron. Correct me if I'm wrong(probably am) but then Cameron's value as far as a Type B player could be as low as a Third round pick or a Second round sandwich pick.

I might be wrong about this, but I believe all Type B losses are compensated in the supplemental round after the first round. I believe they did away with the supplemental rounds after the second and third rounds.

 

So, if the Yankees signed CC, Sheets and Cameron, the Cameron supplemental pick would be after the Sabathia and Sheets supplemental picks, but would still be before the second round. All in all, the Brewers would get the Yankees' first round pick (but not the one they gained for not signing their first round pick last year), three picks in the supplemental round, and the Yankees' second round pick.*

 

*This is assuming the Yankees would only sign those three Type A/B free agents.

[tnweill]

I was under the impression compensation for Type B free agents was in between 2nd and 3rd rounds, not after the 1st round. Could be wrong though....

[TooLiveBrew]

The nah's point, which is also my point is that he has good over-all value, but in the context of the Brewers his value is reduced becuase his weaknesses parallel much of the rest of team.

 

To me, the only context that matters is his position. I just don't understand the basis for the argument that, 'He does things poorly that other Brewers hitters do poorly, therefore he should get dumped.' The only part of it that makes sense to me is that the Brewers have a 100% direct yes/no choice on Cam for 2009. Imo the rest of it is from the land of the 'Our lineup already has enough HR/power' arguments. Compared to the players with which the Brewers could realistically replace Cameron, he is better (or the same, at worst). To me that's just a no-brainer guy to keep in the fold.

 

 

What alot of people I've talked to fail to realize is that Cameron makes the hard plays look easy. I can be sure that not many players would have even layed a glove on the ball hit to CF in NLDS that Cameron dropped.

 

Yes -- Cameron really is good enough that he makes things look easy. The catch he made at Coors Field (don't recall which game, sorry... I know it was a night game) in deep right-center made me gasp audibly. He didn't even have to dive, because he just tracked the ball perfectly & ran all the way through the catch. The man is a next-level defensive player imo in terms of his reactions, instincts, & routes. The only area where his defense has gotten worse is that he's aged. I'd really like to see Cameron back for 2009, because I don't think either Braun (who I'd like to see tried in CF at some point if Weeks isn't) or Hart are ready to step up & man CF to the point that they don't hurt the team.

[And That]

No, compensation for a Type B free agent is between the first and second round.

 

Quoth the CBA:

 

"For such Type A Players, compensation to the Player's former Club shall be an amateur draft choice ("Regular Draft Choice") of the signing Club and an added amateur draft choice ("Special Draft Choice") in the Major League Rule 4 Draft. For such Type B Players, compensation to the Player's former Club shall be a Special Draft Choice in the Major League Rule 4 Draft.

...

The Special Draft Choices described in subparagraph © above shall be additional draft choices to be made immediately following the first complete round of the draft and preceding commencement of the second round. Clubs that have lose a Type A Player shall receive the first selections, in the reverse order of their won-lost percentage in the preceding season. Following these selections, Clubs that have lost a Type B Player shall receive selections, in reverse order of their won-lost percentage in the preceding season. Ties shall be broken by lot."

 

The "Rule 4 Draft" is just the official name of the June amateur draft.

[Ennder]

The entire system is messed up if Cameron is a type B in the first place~.