Milwaukee Bucks Thread 2008–2009 (part 1)

[ILuvDaBush]

I'm seriously hoping for some huge blockbuster deal, where we ship off all four guys, and get back Raef LaFrentz/Jamaal Tinsley/Keith Van Horn...with pix....of Bea Arthur. But seriously, I think Charlie V. has to be tied up, send out RJ and Sessions, and get Joe Alexander seriously involved in the offense.

[Dmiles23]

I personally don't think the economy will have much, if any, affect on the NBA mainly because of the salary cap. The owners probably have that cap amount set aside for salaries no matter what the economy. There may be fewer that want to pay the luxury tax, but I'd bet it won't have much of an impact leading up to that.

 

I agree with trwi that the 2010 free agent class will have more of an affect than the economy. But the thing is, there are only a hand full teams that have a legitimate chance of signing those guys. There are still many other teams that have no interest in the '10 group who will be willing to throw money at both CV and Ramon. All it takes is one team to really like the player. In my opinion, there are 2 things the Bucks just can't do: 1. Throw money out the window by signing players to astrinomical contracts (Gadzuric, Bell, Redd), who don't deserve it. 2. Can't let their young players leave without compensation. And I just think the Bucks messed up by not giving both CV and Sessions big minutes thoughout the whole year. So now they are free agents, and you still aren't completely certain what you have in them.

[bbrauch2000]

I think the market for these guys won't be quite what everyone is expecting. NBA teams are starting to lose faith in giving multi-year deals for over the mid level exemption to marginal starters. Given the fact that they are restricted free agents, there is always a little bit less of a market for those guys than for others. I'd be surprised if both didnt sign one year deals with the Bucks at the end of the season allowing them to be unrestricted next year

[JJHardy7]

I disagree Dmiles about the economy and its impact on contracts. I don't know for sure, but I have to imagine the NBA is feeling the impact due to their ticket prices and due to the fact that teams like say...Milwaukee are losing money and there isn't light at the end of the tunnel (ie the Brewers had Miller Park when they were bad). I don't think it will change the market completely, but money won't be tossed around like it has in the past. This doesn't meant the Bucks can't keep CV and Sessions, but it does mean they're not going to overpay for them, which in this economy may mean they keep them. IMO the NBA will suffer the most from the economy out of the three major sports (I don't know enough about the NHL to comment on that).

I'd also like to know what is so terrible about the Charlie Bell deal. It's not crazy. He's been banged up a bit this year and i don't put a ton of weight in his numbers this year. His contract ($18.5 million over 5 years) is the least of the Bucks worries. If that's a terrible contract, then I don't know what you expect. I'm not saying it's the best deal in the NBA, but I have to imagine Bell's contract is probably a deal when he's healthy. I do agree with you on Gadz, but not on Redd. Should they have given him the max money? I don't know, but he was on the Olympic roster so it's not as if the Bucks are paying a guy a max contract who is terrrible. He's just very one dimensional. I also think it should be noted that Milwaukee is not a destination for NBA players. If they had the extra cash, they'd still have to overpay for players to come to Milwaukee. The best bet for the Bucks is to draft and develop guys like other posts have mentioned here.

[Dmiles23]

I may be wrong about the economy affecting the NBA, but that's my opinion. I just think that with the salary cap, NBA owners have a better idea of how much money they are going to need to spend. I think it will drastically affect teams going into the luxury tax, but I don't think it will make much of a difference leading up to that. But like I said, I may be totally wrong.

 

Now on to Charlie Bell. Ok, fine... we'll take off this year since he's been hurt, but I don't see how anyone can say Bell has been worth ANYTHING since he signed his new contract. He shot 38% from the field last year!! 38%!! Not 38% from 3... 38% from the field!! That is brutal. But what does Bell actually do well? He can't play point. He doesn't shoot well. He isn't a great rebounding guard. He's not a great passer. He's a pretty good defender, but that's about it. Yeah, the money per year is fine. But signing a 28 year old to a 5 year deal after playing just 1 full NBA season is asking for problems. And poor play and injuries are those problems.

 

And Redd should have been on the Olympic team... but does that mean he's a max player? Heck no!! Redd was GREAT to have on the Olympic team because he's best as a second/third option. And paying a second/third option max money is just ridiculous... especially when you don't have the first or second options already in place. He's the 16th highest paid player in the league... and in my opinion, he's not even in the top 30, maybe even 40, players in the NBA. If you want a shooter, sign Kyle Korver for 1/3 the money.

[davego]

Remember the Mavs were going to sign Redd to whatever their max was (obviously less then what Milwaukee could offer) so the Bucks had to go high back at that time. IMO Redd is one of the better players in the league. However, there are few players that really can carry a franchise solo. Redd can't. But neither could Big Dog, Ray, Tim Thomas, Sam I am or Vin Baker. They all got top or near-top dollar while in Milwaukee too. Redd is a nice start, but has to have more to go with him.

 

I'm just not a fan of Bell, so I was hoping he'd go to Miami. Then when he popped off, I thought Flint would have been better.

 

Hats off to Sessions so far. I didn't think he had this much 'game' in him. I'll guess we will see how it plays out but so far, pretty sweet.

 

I wonder how many teams start two 2nd-round picks?

[nate82]

The Cavs were also going after Redd really hard that year.

 

I wonder if Cuban will be looking for a trade this deadline and if the Bucks could get Josh Howard and Jerry Stackhouse for Charlie Villanueva and Richard Jefferson. Howard wants an extension and it doesn't look like the Mavericks are going to be giving it to him. Stackhouse is a bad contract and after next year he would be off the books the same with Howard. Not really a fair trade but the Mavs do get Jefferson who is someone that Kidd would probably like to have.

[samwise]

The Deers started:

 

Sessions

Jefferson

Mbah a Moute

CV

Elson

 

and still won. Crazy.

[ILuvDaBush]

The Roadkill made a pseudo-title contender look like a JV team. CV is just plain SICK! That boy is going to get PAID!

[JoeHova]

Sessions needs to be retained. CV would be nice too, but sometimes his game is too one-dimensional. Another problem for the Bucks is that Ersan Ilyasova may come back to the NBA and the Bucks will need money to re-sign him as well (he's been playing extremely well for Barcelona in the Euroleague and is still only 21).

 

I don't really know how people can claim Sessions has been inconsistent. If anything, it's his minutes that have been inconsistent. When he gets to play, he usually plays well. For example, in 12 career starts at PG, the fewest assists he's handed out is 7. So, if Sessions averaged his worst game as a starting PG, he would be 11th in the league in assists (9th among PGs).

 

I'm not sure who to compare Ramon to, exactly, but so far in his career he has been pretty excellent. To claim he hasn't been requires a lot of nitpicking, which is fair, but let's also remember that he is a 22 year old 2nd round pick (#56 overall!) with 68 games of NBA experience before we go overboard bashing him for perceived weaknesses.

 

davego, I don't agree with you that digging out from under Harris is what is required this year and if that's what Hammond has been attempting to do, he's done a remarkably poor job of it. If anything, the Bucks 3 best young players are all in place because of LH and Hammond's moves have been very average with the exception of drafting Mbah A Moute. The Jefferson trade is OK simply because Yi and Simmons have been useless the last couple years, but unless/until he moves Jefferson for an expiring deal and/or talent, it's not an actual good move.

 

Man, if they can just dump RJ for LaFrentz or Szczerbiak or whoever, they will be in good shape. Redd is overpaid, but still a pretty good player. I think you can live with his contract until it expires or you get a good offer. What they can't live with is losing Sessions, CV and Ilyasova (all of whom are likely better than RJ right now) but keeping Jefferson. For that reason, moving him is absolutely imperative. If they don't, they likely lose all 3 of the young guys. I'm worried that Hammond thinks Jefferson's still a good player though. I guess we'll find out in the next 2 weeks.

 

OTOH, maybe other teams have realized that Jefferson is useless (at his salary) and won't make trade offers, in which case the Bucks are boned.

[homer]

Jefferson is pretty close to his career numbers (other than shooting percentage). I don't get to watch too many Bucks games so maybe he's doing silly things that don't show up in the box score but is he really that awful?

[Gobias Industries]

I'm not sure who to compare Ramon to, exactly, but so far in his career he has been pretty excellent. To claim he hasn't been requires a lot of nitpicking, which is fair, but let's also remember that he is a 22 year old 2nd round pick (#56 overall!) with 68 games of NBA experience before we go overboard bashing him for perceived weaknesses.

His ability to get to the rim and the line reminds me of Monta Ellis. He's not as quick as Monta, but he's definitely more of a true PG. Either way, I'd like to pair him with a good combo guard that can occasionally handle the ball. James Harden would be a good fit, but we'd have to get extremely lucky to get him.

[trwi7]

Jefferson is pretty close to his career numbers (other than shooting percentage). I don't get to watch too many Bucks games so maybe he's doing silly things that don't show up in the box score but is he really that awful?

It's not so much that Jefferson is awful, it's just that he's not worth his salary and we're going to need money to sign CV and Sessions, who combined (and possibly individually) are more valuable than Jefferson.

[nate82]

With Sasha Pavlovic going down for the Cavs maybe the Bucks can trade Jefferson to the Cavs for Wally Szczerbiak. Not someone I would want for RJ but it does get the Bucks out of his contract and frees up some salary cap room for next year to sign Sessions. The Bucks really need to get rid of Gadz though that contract is just a killer.

[Gobias Industries]

I would argue RJ's is more killer. He's got a guy behind him (LRMAM) that's probably better than him, or will be in the near future. While Gadz deal is terrible, it's not nearly as much money and he can be okay against certain opponents.

[nate82]

I would argue RJ's is more killer. He's got a guy behind him (LRMAM) that's probably better than him, or will be in the near future. While Gadz deal is terrible, it's not nearly as much money and he can be okay against certain opponents.

Gadz is impossible to trade since he doesn't add any value to a team. He is not an expiring contract, he isn't young, and he isn't very good at all. RJ is more tradeable for the Bucks than Gadz is. Though most of the teams right now that are trading are going to be looking for expiring contracts and the only expiring contracts the Bucks have that could get anything in value in return would be Sessions and CV.

[Gobias Industries]

RJ is gonna prohibit the Bucks from resigning two young and improving players if he's still on the roster, whereas Gadz is either gonna ride the pine or play very few minutes.

 

Good game for the Bucks tonight. It's good to see they're not folding after all the injuries, and it's nice to see RJ have a good game.

[davego]

To me Danny is the worst deal still on the roster (but I'm not a fan of Bell either). RJ can do some things that has some appeal.

 

I'm not sure why the Bucks have played so well on offense the last three games, but hats off to them. Sure are brining it right now.

[fondybrewfan]

Ramon Sessions is turning into a great PG when he is given opportunities.

 

Mo Williams is also playing extremely well at Cleveland, he looks like he was the missing piece over there. He always showed glimpses with the Bucks but he is playing like a Top 5 PG over there

[Diskono]

To me Danny is the worst deal still on the roster (but I'm not a fan of Bell either). RJ can do some things that has some appeal.

 

I'm not sure why the Bucks have played so well on offense the last three games, but hats off to them. Sure are brining it right now.

I wonder if it would be feasible to package Gadz with Villanueva before the deadline? I just don't think we're going to be able to keep CV and Sessions. Of the two, I think that 1) Sessions is the better player anyway, and 2) PF is easier to replace, and we might already have that replacement in Illyasova (far from a sure thing, but he's playing well in a strong league). I still think Bell mostly sucks, but I won't be so worried if he can have games like the last two every once in awhile.

[davego]

Ye, I've watched Mo a bit and he sure fits in with the Cavs. Basketball that this level seems to depend greatly on the right players in the right place.

[JoeHova]

PF is easier to replace, and we might already have that replacement in Illyasova

 

I kind of disagree with this. PG is vastly easier to replace than PF for a similar reason that 1B is easier to replace than SS. In other words, the population of guys who are 6-1 is much, much greater than the population of guys who are 6-11. Sessions is much better than CV and he's two years younger so I would keep him no question, but all things being equal, PF is harder to replace. Look at how the Bucks just signed a serviceable PG out of the D-League, yet they had to give Malik Allen, a legitimately terrible player, a 2 year deal just because he's 6-10. Look at the D-League in general. There are dozens of guards who are probably good enough to play in the NBA if they get the right break. The situation is not the same with big men, there are probably 2 or 3 who have any chance at all of being NBA contributors.

[davego]

That might be true, but it sure seems that teams tend to find a way to get by w/o a top-notch 4 but can't be successful unless they can lock down the point. I know the Bucks seem to have had issues over the years getting a body @ the #1 but for the most part have had #3's and #4's.

[nate82]

I wonder if this crazy trade idea would work. Something more would have to be going to the Clippers though maybe a draft pick I'm not sure. But for the trade itself Stoudemire and Gordon to the Bucks, Gadzuric and a 2nd round draft pick to the Clippers, Villanueva Elson Jones and Davis to the Suns. NBA Trade Machine link.

 

The Suns are looking to trade Stoudemire and Shaq for salary cap relief. This trade alone wouldn't help the Bucks resign Sessions though but if the Bucks do this trade with the Cavs the Bucks should be able to shed enough salary to sign Sessions to a long term contract. Probably won't happen because of the players being traded for each other. I believe the Suns would be the biggest winners in the trade with all the expiring contracts they would be getting. The Bucks would also get one expiring contract and Amare would only be with the Bucks for next year because he will opt out of that contract. I'm not sure the Clippers would do this deal though and that would be the deal breaker.

[yoshii8]

First of all I'm sure the Clippers have zero interest in trading Eric Gordon, second of all there is no way that we could get even Stoudamire for Villanueva, Elson and Damon Jones. That is a very lopsided trade.