Milwaukee Bucks Thread 2008–2009 (part 1)

[JJHardy7]

But he shot only 34.6% from the field. Would you rather have the guy who scores 16 points on 35% shooting or a guy who scores 10 points on 60% shooting?

 

I mentioned I was disappointed in his shooting in my post.

 

and it's a summer league.

 

How many games was that? It's a very, very small sample size and let's not forget Alexander was also playing with the talent level you mention. He's played better in other 'real' games this year. So what does that mean?

 

To help prove my point. He averaged 14.3 points on 44.3% shooting, 5.7 rebounds, 2.2 assists, 2.0 turnovers and 1.5 blocks in 30 minutes in the first 22 games of his junior year. In his final 11 games he averaged 21.6 points on 52.1% shooting, 6.9 rebounds, 2.9 assists, 2.0 turnovers and 1.4 blocks in 33 minutes.

 

What does that prove? That you think these numbers in the Big East conference makes a player suck? There's nothing wrong with either of those numbers in my opinion. If that's bad, give me 12 Joe Alexanders at a major conference. In your opinion, what is average? 25 ppg while shooting 60%? What's good then? 35 ppg with 75% shooting? There's no way Alexander was a bad college player and if that's your point I will disagree regardless of what 'bad' numbers you mention. To say Alexander is bad is like saying Braun or Hardy are barely average. It's nowhere near the truth IMO. If you hate the guy for some reason, that's fine. There's no logic behind calling Alexander 'bad'.

[trwi7]

How many games was that? It's a very, very small sample size and let's not forget Alexander was also playing with the talent level you mention.

 

Five. I don't think we should throw it out as sample size however. Especially when he was awful in the preseason and regular season.

 

He's played better in other 'real' games this year.

 

He's had those good games in garbage time this year. His best games this year were against the Lakers (we were losing by 30 so we put all the scrubs in) and Denver (same thing as the Lakers game.)

 

It's pretty telling that our 2nd round rookie, who is only a few months older than Alexander is not only getting all of his minutes, but performing better than Alexander could ever dream of.

 

What does that prove? That you think these numbers in the Big East conference makes a player suck? There's nothing wrong with either of those numbers in my opinion. If that's bad, give me 12 Joe Alexanders at a major conference. In your opinion, what is average? 25 ppg while shooting 60%? What's good then? 35 ppg with 75% shooting?

 

Okay, let me rephrase that. Do those 14 point, 5 rebound games as a junior strike you as that of a lottery pick? They don't to me. You either have to be dominating as an upperclassmen or have a standout skill if you're not dominating to consider being drafted that high. I don't see any standout skill and he only dominated for 1/3 of a season.

 

The main problem I had with the pick is that I think the Bucks saw his last 11 games and then saw how he tested as an athlete and fell in love with him. So much so, that they only worked out him and Anthony Randolph. That's terrible that they zeroed in on basically two guys and didn't even consider anybody else.

[Dmiles23]

Okay, let me rephrase that. Do those 14 point, 5 rebound games as a junior strike you as that of a lottery pick? They don't to me.

First off, let me say that I HATED the Joe Alexander pick. I thought it was horrible planning/scouting, and that is why the Bucks are not a good franchise. But I have to say, get your stats right!! Joe averaged 16.9 points, 6.4 rebounds, and 2.4 assists as a junior. Just because "he only had an 11 game stretch where he was good" doesn't mean you can take those stats off the book. If that's the case... take away all of Jordan's games where he scored over 15, and he's just an average player.

 

Lets look back at the 07 draft where 2 juniors went before #8, one 5 and the other 7. Jeff Green as a junior averaged 14.3/6.4/3.2. Corey Brewer averaged 13.2/4.7/2.9. I'm not comparing these guys in any way but their stats. But since you are looking at Alexander's stats, I seem to think that these three are relatively close. So no, it is not unprecedented for a player with those stats to be picked in the lotto.

 

And also, Alexander was not horrible his soph year. 10.3/4.3/1.9 isn't a bad stat line. I know he did shoot poorly, but you are making his sound like he's a JP Gavinski or someone. Come on now buddy!!

[trwi7]

Just because "he only had an 11 game stretch where he was good" doesn't mean you can take those stats off the book. If that's the case... take away all of Jordan's games where he scored over 15, and he's just an average player.

I added the stats, just in different segments. Let me ask this, if he had those 11 good games at the start of the season, but fell off in the final 22. Would he still have been a lottery pick?

 

As for the stats of Brewer and Green. Brewer is terrible and Green isn't that great either. In fact, Ty on Bucks Diary had Green as the most harmful player in the NBA last year.

 

http://docs.google.com/Vi...ocid=dd4nrbjq_258ff4s4df2

[JJHardy7]

Okay, let me rephrase that. Do those 14 point, 5 rebound games as a junior strike you as that of a lottery pick? They don't to me. You either have to be dominating as an upperclassmen or have a standout skill if you're not dominating to consider being drafted that high. I don't see any standout skill and he only dominated for 1/3 of a season.

 

The main problem I had with the pick is that I think the Bucks saw his last 11 games and then saw how he tested as an athlete and fell in love with him. So much so, that they only worked out him and Anthony Randolph. That's terrible that they zeroed in on basically two guys and didn't even consider anybody else.

 

My entire statements were in regards to you calling him a bad college player...nothing at all to do with the pick.

 

How can you knock his last games of his college career and then at the same time say his 5 games (small sample) means anything? If he played well in 'garbage' time, isn't he playing against better players than the summer league? I think your entire back and forth and picking what makes your points means one thing...it's too early to tell on Alexander. I personally like him and hope he becomes a player. Is that a slam dunk to happen? I don't think so, but I do think he's athletic enough to be a player in the league. Let's just try and remember he's only halfway through his first NBA season. Alexander also provides things a lot of the lottery picks and other NBA players don't...he WANTS to be in Milwaukee and he's going to give you effort.

 

And also, Alexander was not horrible his soph year. 10.3/4.3/1.9 isn't a bad stat line. I know he did shoot poorly, but you are making his sound like he's a JP Gavinski or someone. Come on now buddy!!

 

I agree Miles (by the way Darius actually got some SportsCenter highlight time last night). Joe started as a sophomore in what is supposed to be one of the best conferences in all the land.

[olliegjw]

I agree Miles (by the way Darius actually got some SportsCenter highlight time last night). Joe started as a sophomore in what is supposed to be one of the best conferences in all the land.

Dominic James started as a freshman, and averaged double digits. He must be a lottery pick.

[Dmiles23]

I added the stats, just in different segments. Let me ask this, if he had those 11 good games at the start of the season, but fell off in the final 22. Would he still have been a lottery pick?

 

As for the stats of Brewer and Green. Brewer is terrible and Green isn't that great either. In fact, Ty on Bucks Diary had Green as the most harmful player in the NBA last year.

Stats are stats. And that's what you're pointing out. And if he would have had those 11 games spaced out throughout the year? What if he would have had every game like those last 11? You are just pointing out stats!! You can move stats around, or take them out to prove any point you want, but in the end you have to look at the whole body of work. So maybe next year if MLB doesn't want the Brewers to be in the playoffs, they can just take out a good month and say they don't count?

 

And I could care less about Green and Brewer in the NBA. You are making a point that Juniors with stats like that don't get picked in the lottery. They do!! So your point is null.

[Dmiles23]

Dominic James started as a freshman, and averaged double digits. He must be a lottery pick.

Yeah, and James has regressed every year since his freshman year. Wow... looking at his stats it's pretty impressive that someone can drop in each of points, rebounds, and assists in each year from his freshman to junior years. He probably would have been smart to leave after his freshman year. 43% shooting? 48% from the line? 32% from three? I didn't realize he was that bad!!

[fondybrewfan]

Does James really have any chance at all of getting drafted next year?

 

Does his lack of development show Crean in a bad light? I guess I don't think so since McNeal and Matthews have each gotten much better over their last 3 years.

 

In Bucks news: Would anyone really be all the excited if the Bucks squeak into the playoffs with the #8 seed? I know I wouldn't be, it seems remarkebly easy to make the playoffs once every couple of years in the NBA simply because they allow 8 teams a conference. Once they can get a #6 or higher seed then I will start to think the Bucks are turning the corner. I would like to think they could turn out to be like the Hawks were last year as a #8 but I just don't see the Bucks having any chance whatsoever against the Celtics or Cavs.

[Gobias Industries]

In Bucks news: Would anyone really be all the excited if the Bucks squeak into the playoffs with the #8 seed? I know I wouldn't be, it seems remarkebly easy to make the playoffs once every couple of years in the NBA simply because they allow 8 teams a conference. Once they can get a #6 or higher seed then I will start to think the Bucks are turning the corner. I would like to think they could turn out to be like the Hawks were last year as a #8 but I just don't see the Bucks having any chance whatsoever against the Celtics or Cavs.

I wouldn't go crazy or anything, but I'd definitely watch the playoff games. This team is playing the right way, and I'd say they're maxing out their potential with Skiles. It's a lot different than the Karl-coached teams that backed into the playoffs while having a very talented roster. I was so ticked that year I didn't even care to watch.

[ILuvDaBush]

A few years back, we almost up-ended the #1 seed (I beleive it was Reggie Miller's Pacers) from our #8 seed. The glory of the playoffs is that once you're in, anything can happen. And these Bucks have the spunk to absolutely upset the Celtics or the Cavs. Honestly, how much does a team with Mo at the point and a beatdown Big Ben at the pivot scare you?

[yoshii8]

Honestly, how much does a team with Mo at the point and a beatdown Big Ben at the pivot scare you?

Then they also have this one guy named Lebron, who might be worth mentioning on that team.

 

I'd be excited to see the Bucks get the #8 seed, especially coming off the last couple of dreadful seasons. I also think they are capable of an pulling off an upset in the first round if they continue to grow as a team this season.

[trwi7]

Stats are stats. And that's what you're pointing out. And if he would have had those 11 games spaced out throughout the year? What if he would have had every game like those last 11?

 

 

This is what I'm pointing out. Alexander was picked in the lottery based on those 11 games and then his workouts. If those 11 games happened in the beginning of the year and then he fell off, he wouldn't have been talked about in the lottery. Since those 11 games happened towards the end of the season and in the Big East tournament, he got a ton of hype from ESPN, that's when he all of a sudden started rising up the draft boards. Then his workouts came and he rose a little more because of his athleticism.

The problem is, we looked at those 11 games and saw big improvement from the previous year and thought he had a lot of potential, but didn't look at the rest of the year and how he had only made a slight improvement until those final 11 games.

[Gobias Industries]

Then they also have this one guy named Lebron, who might be worth mentioning on that team.

Yeah he's a pretty solid player from what I hear.

 

I think the Cavs would be a nightmare first round match-up. We'd be lucky to win one game. Our team matches up much better with the Celtics.

[JJHardy7]

Dominic James started as a freshman, and averaged double digits. He must be a lottery pick.

 

Again...I am NOT talking about why he was picked where he was. Would you call James a bad college player? I never said since he started his sophomore year he's a lottery pick. You may want to re-read or read my posts. My point was/is that Alexander wasn't a bad college player...it had nothing to do with being a lottery pick or not.

[JJHardy7]

This is what I'm pointing out. Alexander was picked in the lottery based on those 11 games and then his workouts. If those 11 games happened in the beginning of the year and then he fell off, he wouldn't have been talked about in the lottery. Since those 11 games happened towards the end of the season and in the Big East tournament, he got a ton of hype from ESPN, that's when he all of a sudden started rising up the draft boards. Then his workouts came and he rose a little more because of his athleticism.

 

The problem is, we looked at those 11 games and saw big improvement from the previous year and thought he had a lot of potential, but didn't look at the rest of the year and how he had only made a slight improvement until those final 11 games.

 

I'm not stating whether or not Alexander was the right pick...it's way too early. There have been plenty of players who have helped their stock towards the end of the season and the tournament. This is due to the big attention drawn to those games. I don't think Joe went from a scrub to the numbers he had. If that's your opinion, that's fine. It does seem his game got better with the pressure/more on the line and he did have good workouts. I think you're acting like nobody had Alexander as a lottery pick...plenty of scouts did. The NBA Draft is becoming more and more of a crap shoot and I think we'll find out if it was the right pick...I think it was, but again it's way too early to judge any pick right now.

[davego]

Can't win if you don't get in. I'd take it. #8 seed is similar (but not nearly as cool) as the 'Crew getting the WC.

[Gobias Industries]

Yeah I don't think it's fair to label Joe anything until the end of next year.

 

He's just so athletic and such a hard worker it's hard to envision him as a huge bust. A lot of times these "work-out warriors" like Joe are content once they get drafted and paid. If they're out of the league after their rookie contract? Big deal. Go to Europe and play ball and bang hot European chicks. I don't see that for Alexander.

[Dmiles23]

This is what I'm pointing out. Alexander was picked in the lottery based on those 11 games and then his workouts. If those 11 games happened in the beginning of the year and then he fell off, he wouldn't have been talked about in the lottery. Since those 11 games happened towards the end of the season and in the Big East tournament, he got a ton of hype from ESPN, that's when he all of a sudden started rising up the draft boards. Then his workouts came and he rose a little more because of his athleticism.

I'm not arguing with you about that. I just pointed out your stats were wrong... and that you can't take 11 games out of a players stats. And I'm also saying that players had been picked in the lottery with worse stats than Alexander. Like I said, I hated the Alexander pick; but you're making him out to be the worst player ever. And even if you do take those 11 games away, he still has very similar stats to Green and Brewer.

 

So in my opinion, was it a reach to pick Alexander #8? No, because, if I remember correctly, he started playing basketball at a later age and very well could be a late bloomer. That 11 game stretch could have been the time that he finally "got it" and could have been the time he was going to blow up. If Alexander was playing and averaging 15 a game now, nobody would be saying anything. But because he has hardly played "well... those 11 games weren't the true Joe Alexander. He must have just eaten more Wheaties on those days!"

 

And in my opinion, was Alexander the right pick for the Bucks? HECK NO!! They knew he was going to be a project. I shuddered when I first heard that the Bucks were high on him. But what's new? I've pretty much been against every move the Bucks have made in the last 5 or so years. I was hoping Hammond would come in make some better decisions. And I guess you can't argue against what he's done so far. They are on pace to make the playoffs. But with this team they will just be stuck in mediocrity for as long as they are together. I'm just scared that the Bucks will make the playoffs, and then during the offseason think that they don't need to make changes. With the players this team has now, this team tops out at a 7 or 8 seed.

 

So to answer the question Fondy asked, I'm almost cheering for the Bucks to fail this year. I just think this team needs to be gutted, with Mbah a Moute and Bogut being the only players that stay, and started from stratch. Redd is Redd. He's a decent player, but should not be a number 1 option on any team... and is not worth near the contract he has. I was kinda excited when we acquired Jefferson, but he has turned into the typical Buck chucker. His free throws per game are WAY down, and his shooting % is down as well. Ridnour has played well, but in my eyes he's not a point guard that can lead you far in the playoffs. Villanueva, I'm not gonna lie, he's my favorite player... and ranks right up there with Darius Miles as my favorite players in the league. I loved him at UConn, and was pumped when the Bucks traded for him. But he is just not a good fit for this team. He would flourish in a run and gun system. But his D is pretty bad, and he gets in stretches where he's a Bucks chucker, throwing up ill advised shots from the outside.

 

I think a team like the Bucks, where you aren't going to get any big time free agents, needs to rebuild through the draft. And once you get a keystone player, go from there. I LOVE what Portland has done. They have been lucky with the players they have drafted being sucessful, but they also made some savvy trades to stockpile talent. To me, I'd rather see 2-3 seasons of rebuilding(maybe even more) if it means this team can get a true star on the team than be stuck with a team that is hovering around .500 every year knowing they will never advance in the playoffs.

 

Sorry for the long post... I was just going to say the one thing, but got on a roll I guess.

[JJHardy7]

And in my opinion, was Alexander the right pick for the Bucks? HECK NO!!

 

I thought he might have been the right pick before trading for RJ. That's when I thought they may have been best to trade down a bit or take a different player. The Bucks aren't a franchise that can afford that high of a pick being a player that barely sees the floor.

 

So to answer the question Fondy asked, I'm almost cheering for the Bucks to fail this year. I just think this team needs to be gutted, with Mbah a Moute and Bogut being the only players that stay, and started from stratch.

 

The only thing I worry about in this scenario is keeping Hammond around. I really think this guy is going to get the team back on track. I think what he did or tried to do in the off-season was to balance winning now with winning in the future. I don't think his ultimate goal is to be a #7 or #8 seed this year or next year, but if he can while continuing to build the core that's what he'll do. I'm not saying these guys are or aren't the future, but I think Hammond's plan revolves around (in alpha order not by talent) Alexander, Bogut, Mbah a Moute, Sessions, and possibly Villanueva (I think he's going to be traded before the deadline, but we'll see).

 

I'm not saying these young guys will bring glory back to the Bucks, but they may only be a few young pieces away along with a blend of veterans from being a top 4 seed in the east. I know that sounds a little to optimistic, but the east IMO just isn't that good as a whole and in a few years when I think Hammond's real plan takes shape LeBron may not be with the Cavs and the big three on the Celtics may not be on that team. The one team that concerns me now and in the future is the Magic, but I guess we'll see. It is nice to see the Bucks back in the playoff hunt now even if it's in the mediocre east and a bad seed.

[trwi7]

JJHardy7 wrote:

---

I don't think his ultimate goal is to be a #7 or #8 seed this year or next year, but if he can while continuing to build the core that's what he'll do.

Impossible in the NBA. There's three ways to acquire players in the NBA. Draft, trades and free agency. We're capped out, not bad enough to pick in the top 10 where pretty much all the good players go and don't have a lot of trade assets.

 

We're likely going to continue to be the 7th or 8th seed or we're going to tear down the roster and start from scratch. I'd prefer the latter.

[RyDogg66]

Hey what happened to this trade that was all but done pending Herbie's signature? Are they sending him the notice via pony express??

[Dmiles23]

It's just so hard to predict how the league is going to be in a couple years. With the huge free agent class of 2010, it's hard to tell what teams are going to have by then. But I just don't see the Bucks competing in the next couple years, so what's the sense of holding onto Redd and Jefferson? They have 3 years left on their contract (including this year, I think)... and barring a miracle trade or winning the draft lottery, we will still be in the 7th, 8th, or just out of the playoff position.

 

If I was Hammond, I'd just try to get rid of everything Harris left you with. Trade Redd/Jefferson/Villanueva/Sessions for younger players with upsides, expiring contracts, and mainly draft picks. My thinking is that neither Redd nor Jefferson would bring back all that much, but if you add a player like Villanueva or Sessions to the deal, they may get more back in return. The way I'm looking at this situation is similar to how the Brewers dealt with Cordero, albeit a longer way out. But instead of losing Redd and Jefferson to free agency, trade them now for something that may help in the future. But I just think this team needs to build through the draft. And the more draft picks they have, the better chance they have to A) win the lottery and B) hit on a star player. That is one of the ways I would have been a fan of the Conley trade. If Memphis sent us back a top 3 or so protected first, I would have been all over that trade.

[JJHardy7]

Impossible in the NBA. There's three ways to acquire players in the NBA. Draft, trades and free agency. We're capped out, not bad enough to pick in the top 10 where pretty much all the good players go and don't have a lot of trade assets.

 

We're likely going to continue to be the 7th or 8th seed or we're going to tear down the roster and start from scratch. I'd prefer the latter.

 

It's not impossible. There are a few second round picks on this team that managed to not go in the top 10 yet are pretty darn good players. I know it's much easier to win a championship with a top 10 type talent, but it doesn't HAVE to happen that way. I'm more worried about getting in the top 4 seeds before I am worried about a championship. It's far from impossible in my mind. The right decisions have to be made and that's much more important than what spot a team is drafting from...if a team is usually drafting in the 20s it's because they made the right decisions. You'll still get a pick in the middle of the first round or so if you're a 7 or 8 seed. There's nothing wrong with that.

 

I also think the Bucks have a ton of trade assets...just not maybe this year. Redd and RJ should go for a nice haul in the final years of their deals. They are pretty solid players and they'll have what every team wants -- expiring contracts. Both of these guys could help a team on a championship run. The real question will be what the return is. Now Gadz on the other hand has zero trade value now and in the future.

 

Hey what happened to this trade that was all but done pending Herbie's signature? Are they sending him the notice via pony express??

 

Probably the same reason Conley played last night...the source was wrong and the deal isn't going to happen. I'm just shocked.

[trwi7]

Probably the same reason Conley played last night...the source was wrong and the deal isn't going to happen. I'm just shocked.

They're waiting until the results of the dunk contest. Update from a Memphis paper last night is that the discussions are ongoing.

 

 

http://cmimemphis.com/grizblog/node/439