Milwaukee Bucks Thread 2008–2009 (part 1)

[davego]

Trwi7 has got it right I'm guessing, this is a $ driven move. Conley (I think) would be a Skiles kind-of-guy. I'm not much of a Sessions fan, but that's just me I guess. I wonder if this might be a way to try to keep CV and stay under the cap.

 

I'll disagree that moving Redd is a good idea. While he is $$$, Milwaukee would be 26th in offense w/o him. RJ had to come here to get rid of Simmons...made it worth it right there.

 

I wonder if the front office just doesn't see much of a future already for Alexander and with Prince doing what he has done, that move would make sense.

[JJHardy7]

I hope this move isn't true. To me, it doesn't make sense and even if it saves $3.5 million there are much easier ways to save money long-term (Redd, Jefferson, Gadz, etc.). I don't think this rumor carries a ton of weight since it includes two young pieces that the Bucks I thought were pretty high on. I still think the Bucks will be making a trade that will bring in an additional player since they have one roster spot left. I'm one of the rare people that thinks the Bucks do have some nice young talent that could develop, but trading Sessions and Alexander would kind of void that statement to a certain degree. I don't think I'd do Sessions for Conley straight up.

[trwi7]

I don't think this rumor carries a ton of weight

Gery Woelfel says this deal is done pending approval from Kohl.

[davego]

Anyone who really is a Redd hater should have watched tonight's game. W/o him, they would have been lucky to score 60. I know he isn't perfect an all that, but he is by far (and by far I mean really far) the best offensive player on that team.

[Gobias Industries]

Anyone who really is a Redd hater should have watched tonight's game. W/o him, they would have been luckey to score 60. I know he isn't perfect an all that, but he is by far (and by far I mean really far) the best offensive player on that team.

Yeah, I'm not a fan but he has picked it up the last 10 games or so. I'm now hating on Jefferson. He's probably the worst starter on our team.

 

I was only able to catch the second half, and I'd like to say Bogut played about as well as you can during that period. If I'm not mistaken, I think he played the entire half as well.

[davego]

Just my opinion, but I do like Bogut's 'game.' While he seems to be shaping up as a secondary-type player, he sure is a guy to keep.

 

RJ might be one and done here. At this point I hope he cna be flipped and CV can stay...never thought it would shake out that way.

[fondybrewfan]

Maybe is they were adding salary they should get Khol's approval but why do they need approval if they are shedding salary.

 

It seems odd that they are essentially "giving up" on their last 2 1st round picks very quickly. Yi was gone after one year and Alexander might not make it a whole year. I am not sure what the point of drafting Alexander #6 overall, not really giving him much a chance in the rotation, and then shipping him off in 3 months really accomplishes. It sounds like a complete waste of a high draft pick.

[yoshii8]

It seems odd that they are essentially "giving up" on their last 2 1st round picks very quickly. Yi was gone after one year and Alexander might not make it a whole year. I am not sure what the point of drafting Alexander #6 overall, not really giving him much a chance in the rotation, and then shipping him off in 3 months really accomplishes. It sounds like a complete waste of a high draft pick.

I agree, its hard for me to believe that they would ship out Alexander this quickly, considering this is Hammonds first lottery pick in his tenure as GM. Although, if he feels Conley is going to be a star he probably thinks it's worth the risk.

 

I like Sessions, but I loved Conley coming out of OSU, and still think he is going to be great in the NBA. I'm just hoping that we don't have to include Alexander in the deal.

[Gobias Industries]

RJ might be one and done here. At this point I hope he cna be flipped and CV can stay...never thought it would shake out that way.

I hope he can pick it up so he's somewhat tradeable at the deadline or in the offseason.

 

I think our best lineup is Ridnour, Redd, LRMAM, Villanueva, Bogut. That should be our 4th quarter lineup in a tight game.

 

From reading over at RealGM it seems like Skiles really screwed up in the 2nd quarter with everyone basically playing, except our best player. What in the heck was he trying to prove?

[JJHardy7]

Gery Woelfel says this deal is done pending approval from Kohl.

 

No offense, but I really don't care what he says. I think it's just a rumor until there's more sources out there saying otherwise. The trade doesn't make any sense and would go against exactly what the Bucks are trying to do. Memphis would give up Conley for much less than that. They've been trying to give him up for even less than Sessions and from what I know from some Memphis folks the Bucks would be giving up much more than what's been offered for Conley up to this point. I think if salaries make sense (not sure if they do) Alexander would be enough to get Conley...that's why I think this trade carries little weight as constructed per Gery.

[olliegjw]

In the NBA, you need superstars to win a title. The only team in memory that has won a title without a top 10 player in the league, is the Pistons from a few years ago. Conley has the best chance of becoming a superstar out of those 3 players. He would only be a junior in college if he had not come out early. He also plays much better defense than any guard on our current team.

[davego]

Conley certainly has upside. Olliegjw makes a great point.

[trwi7]

No offense, but I really don't care what he says. I think it's just a rumor until there's more sources out there saying otherwise. The trade doesn't make any sense and would go against exactly what the Bucks are trying to do. Memphis would give up Conley for much less than that. They've been trying to give him up for even less than Sessions and from what I know from some Memphis folks the Bucks would be giving up much more than what's been offered for Conley up to this point. I think if salaries make sense (not sure if they do) Alexander would be enough to get Conley...that's why I think this trade carries little weight as constructed per Gery.

You don't have to believe it. It was also all over the Memphis paper (they picked up on it first) and one of the guys on realgm said the player's agents were notified and as of early last night they thought the deal was going to get done. I don't know if it will or won't, but that's what I know right now.

[Gobias Industries]

Charlie Bell is a better defender than Conley. And I don't think any of the 3 players have a chance to be top 50, let alone top 10. I think they're all pretty equal prospects, with Ramon being the best contributor right now. Conley has been putting up putrid numbers for his first 1.5 seasons.

 

That said, I'd still probably do the deal. We need to shave money, and Ramon is gonna get a nice raise this offseason. Alexander isn't needed, as LRMAM is a lot better and should be the future starter at SF, and Ilyasova, if he comes back over, should be a good rotation player at the 3 & 4.

[JJHardy7]

You don't have to believe it. It was also all over the Memphis paper (they picked up on it first) and one of the guys on realgm said the player's agents were notified and as of early last night they thought the deal was going to get done. I don't know if it will or won't, but that's what I know right now.

 

I know I don't have to believe it, but I think it's overpaying. The Memphis papers have had Conley traded a few times and it usually has involved Portland. If for some reason the deal would go through, I think it's a terrible move. It'd be trading Alexander when he has next to little value and just 'upside'.

[davego]

Would you trade Alexander for Conley straight up? Or, if they were both in the same draft, which would you take first?

[RyDogg66]

How is trading Alexander when he has little value and just upside any different than drafting Alexander when he has little value and just upside?

 

It was my (self-limited) understanding that the Bucks would have rather had Conley than Yi in the 2007 draft and that they "settled" for Joe Alexander after trying to figure out how to trade up to get someone they really wanted in 2008's draft. If they make this deal they would have traded Yi, Sessions and Alexander for Conley, Jefferson and (presumably) a first round draft pick in 2009.

[JJHardy7]

Would you trade Alexander for Conley straight up? Or, if they were both in the same draft, which would you take first?

 

I personally would take Alexander. I think he can be a player in this league despite what some here might think. I don't think Conley is going to pan out. I think if Ohio State doesn't have Oden/have a solid year he's still playing at OSU. Memphis won 22 games last year and right now is 11 - 26 right now. With that being said Conley has managed play about the same during his career as Sessions, short worse FG % than Sessions, average less assists and rebounds, and scored less than Sessions. I want zero part of Conley given what the team has. To answer your question about the two, I would take Alexander over Conley. If they were in the same draft, I'd take whichever position was more of a need. The only thing I don't like about the Alexander pick is that it wasn't a need given the roster and taken picks like that in the lottery is how teams continue to draft in the lottery IMO.

 

How is trading Alexander when he has little value and just upside any different than drafting Alexander when he has little value and just upside?

 

Why draft him then? Trading him now makes the Bucks look quite stupid and I don't think the Bucks are that stupid. My point is that if Alexander would play a bit he may show something that drives up his value. Contracts are guaranteed in the NBA so drafting Alexander meant the Bucks believed in him in some shape or form. His value to me is as low as it'll be during his career and if they do want to trade him they should go ahead and play him a bit more to showcase him. I see Sessions and Joe for Conley essentially giving up one of the two for nothing. It's terrible value.

 

It was my (self-limited) understanding that the Bucks would have rather had Conley than Yi in the 2007 draft and that they "settled" for Joe Alexander after trying to figure out how to trade up to get someone they really wanted in 2008's draft. If they make this deal they would have traded Yi, Sessions and Alexander for Conley, Jefferson and (presumably) a first round draft pick in 2009.

 

Jefferson has been a bust and is overpaid (should've kept Yi at this point) and giving up Sessions would be a terrible move. If it's Alexander straight up for Conley that's fine if the Bucks really believe Conley is going to be anything. Or I guess straight up for Sessions. Conley isn't going to be anything special and given his size will continue to present defensive limitations that Bucks have struggled with what seems like forever.

[olliegjw]

Jefferson has been a bust and is overpaid (should've kept Yi at this point) and giving up Sessions would be a terrible move. If it's Alexander straight up for Conley that's fine if the Bucks really believe Conley is going to be anything. Or I guess straight up for Sessions. Conley isn't going to be anything special and given his size will continue to present defensive limitations that Bucks have struggled with what seems like forever.

It sounds like you are greatly undervaluing defense, just like the Bucks have for years. The Bucks have enough offense with Redd, RJ, and Bogut. They only need a PG who plays good defense and distributes the ball to the scorers. Also, Conley is younger than both Sessions and Alexander. Sessions is horrible on defense, and Alexander appears to be the same. RJ is a huge upgrade defensively over Yi.

[JJHardy7]

It sounds like you are greatly undervaluing defense, just like the Bucks have for years. The Bucks have enough offense with Redd, RJ, and Bogut. They only need a PG who plays good defense and distributes the ball to the scorers. Also, Conley is younger than both Sessions and Alexander. Sessions is horrible on defense, and Alexander appears to be the same. RJ is a huge upgrade defensively over Yi.

 

I don't think I'm undervaluing defense in terms of RJ vs. Yi. I think cost also comes into play. RJ costs a hell of a lot more than Yi. RJ is a better defender than Yi, but I wouldn't pay that much for defense. I still hope RJ gets out of the funk he's in because given his contract and Yi's Yi is the much better value in my opinion. If only we could've somehow given up Simmons AND Gadz in that deal...

 

I don't think Conley is an upgrade over Sessions on defense. Conley is smaller and like I posted will continue the struggles from the point guard position. If Conley is heads and shoulders above Sessions on a defensive end, it would make more sense straight up. I just don't think he is and bigger point guards have their way with him in terms of posting him up and being more physical. I also don't think Conley is 6-1. I've stood next to him and he's close to my height if not my height - 5-10. Sessions is a year and half older than Conley and Alexander is less than a year older than Conley. That's not enough in my eyes to justify who has more or less potential and is pretty much a non-issue in my eyes.

[davego]

I guess I'd go with Conley over Alexander, but that is just my opinion. Others here value Sessons more then I. To me, he isn't close to the player that even Luke is.

[trwi7]

I would take Conley over Alexander in a second and I'm not even a Conley fan. I can't believe the Bucks got duped into taking Alexander. He was a mediocre to bad college player until the last 15 games of his final season and shot up the boards based on that. He shot even further up after he tested out as a great athlete. The guy has looked completely lost in the little time he has actually played, he looked awful in the preseason and looked awful in the summer league against guys who get signed to 10 day contracts. It's better to admit the mistake now and get value while you can than to hang onto him until he holds no value.

[JJHardy7]

I would take Conley over Alexander in a second and I'm not even a Conley fan. I can't believe the Bucks got duped into taking Alexander. He was a mediocre to bad college player until the last 15 games of his final season and shot up the boards based on that. He shot even further up after he tested out as a great athlete. The guy has looked completely lost in the little time he has actually played, he looked awful in the preseason and looked awful in the summer league against guys who get signed to 10 day contracts. It's better to admit the mistake now and get value while you can than to hang onto him until he holds no value.

 

I respect your opinion that you want Conly over Alexander, but I think you're going a bit far on 'how bad' Alexander is in your mind. He averaged 16 points per 48 in the summer league and it's a summer league. Players are working on new things and such and I wouldn't put a ton of weight on that. I was disappointed with how poorly he shot, but I don't think he was 'completely lost'.

 

I wouldn't call Alexander a bad player in college. That is stretching it big time IMO. If you don't like the player, that's fine. I just wouldn't pull things out of nowhere to prove why you think Alexander sucks. Playing in a major conference, starting his sophomore year, and helping to lead a team to the NCAA tourney his junior isn't a bad college player. If he's a bad college player, college teams should be recruiting these 'bad players' on a more regular basis.

[rwa12]

I viewed JA as an energy player, a nice spark guy. While his work ethic seemed to gel with Skiles, he is not the disciplined player that Skiles prefers. Any time the draft guys stop talking about basketball, and start talking about what an "athlete" someone is, I would typically run in another direction. He was pretty unpolished coming out of school, with hustle and intensity making up for basketball IQ. Conley seems like he would be a better fit for this offense, but I don't think I would consider JA a complete bust as a player at this time. I don't think the ceiling was ever that high, he was just taken higher than he should have been in the draft. The knocks that I have read on him state that he plays too fast, which is something he will hopefully grow out of. I could see him being a nice compliment for a D'Antoni team, a faster Trevor Ariza (another athlete who is still developing skills), or a best case IMO as a Desmond Mason type. I think Conley benefited from playing with Oden, maybe Bogut could be his Oden, who knows?

[trwi7]

He averaged 16 points per 48 in the summer league

But he shot only 34.6% from the field. Would you rather have the guy who scores 16 points on 35% shooting or a guy who scores 10 points on 60% shooting?

 

and it's a summer league.

That makes it all the more disappointing. He was a lottery pick going up against undrafted, 2nd round and NBDL guys hoping to impress and get a contract from somebody. The fact that he was terrible in the summer league was a huge red flag.

 

I wouldn't call Alexander a bad player in college. That is stretching it big time IMO.

He was bad as a freshman and sophomore and mediocre as a junior until that 11 game stretch.

 

To help prove my point. He averaged 14.3 points on 44.3% shooting, 5.7 rebounds, 2.2 assists, 2.0 turnovers and 1.5 blocks in 30 minutes in the first 22 games of his junior year. In his final 11 games he averaged 21.6 points on 52.1% shooting, 6.9 rebounds, 2.9 assists, 2.0 turnovers and 1.4 blocks in 33 minutes.

 

That's when he started to get hyped up by the media, then he did the workouts and tested out as a great athlete and got hyped even more and all of a sudden it seemed everyone forgot about his mediocreness (yeah, I'm making up words now) for two thirds of the season.