Sheets watch (closed in deference to new thread)

[silversurferr]

Another example of Yost mismanagement: early last year, first or second start, Yost lets Sheets pitch into the ninth, even though the game was salted away. At the time I recognized it as a stupid move because of Sheets's fragility. So what if Sheets wants to stay in? Making decisions in the best interest of the team, even if individual players do not like the decisions, is what managers do! If not, what is the purpose of a manager?

 

 

(edit: excessive punctuation)

[TheCrew07]

All good young pitchers are ridden hard, it's not Yost, it's baseball. I think it's fair to blame Baker for Wood and Prior, but the Yost situation was different with Sheets. He was ridden pretty hard in 2004 but Ben's weird injuries following that season were not workload induced, and it's fair to say that conditioning may have been a factor, when injuries are non contact in nature there's always that possibility. This is classic revisionist history, how many people wanted Sheets pulled from those games in 2004 when he was racking up K's left and right and chasing team records? Lets be realistic here... there is no way that Yost did so much damage to Sheets before the all-star break in 2008 that he caused the tear is Ben's arm. Until a study proves that there's more to pitching injuries than pitching itself and natural stability, this is really speculation, regardless what PAP might have to say about who is abused and who isn't. Who's to say his arm wouldn't have broken down at X number of pitches regardless? Maybe having 3 injury riddled seasons actually allowed him to last as long he did, maybe the elbow would have broken down sooner. Maybe the muscle injury slightly altered his motion causing more stress on the joint and thus causing the tear... again we really don't know anything other than that it's a bad idea to pitch someone with a tear because it got worse. That's much more on the training staff than the manager, I get why people dislike Yost, but sometimes the venom is borderline irrational.

[Fatter than Joey]

I see the Rangers signed RP Eddie Guardado, for a deal worth up to $3 million. Supposedly this could mean they won't be signing Sheets,

 

They signed Everyday Ed to a minor league deal, to leave a spot for Sheets.

[areacodes]

In TH's blog from this morning he says this about Sheets:

 

I would like to reiterate that there appears to be virtually no chance of Ben Sheets returning to the Brewers. Someone familiar with the situation made that clear to me -- again -- yesterday.

And I also found this tidbit from the MLB.com beat writer of the Rangers, T.R. Sullivan:

 

Two weeks ago, free agent pitcher Ben Sheets and his agent, Casey Close, had dinner with the Rangers. Rangers owner Tom Hicks was at the dinner, which suggested things were getting serious.

Two weeks later, Sheets remains unsigned.

All signs points to him not being with the Rangers in 2008 [i'm assuming he meant 2009]. It just doesn't look like it will happen.

So, if both these are true, what team(s) would be left for Sheets?

[Ennder]

Lets be realistic here... there is no way that Yost did so much damage to Sheets before the all-star break in 2008 that he caused the tear is Ben's arm.

 

You have absolutely no proof that this is a true statement. I guarantee you if I were to throw 200 IP worth of pitches over the next year I'd blow out my arm, it just is not prepared for that type of stress at all right now. When a pitcher is coming off of multiple partial seasons you don't push him, it is just stupid to do it and we decided to risk it and it blew up in our faces.

[rluzinski]

A random google sent me to this article and it made me very sad:

 

http://sports.espn.go.com...ction=magazine&id=3773521

[logan82]

Thanks a lot. Now I am depressed. I wish Sheets had done more interviews in 2008. The guy is just entertaining.

[TheCrew07]

You have absolutely no proof that this is a true statement. I guarantee you if I were to throw 200 IP worth of pitches over the next year I'd blow out my arm, it just is not prepared for that type of stress at all right now. When a pitcher is coming off of multiple partial seasons you don't push him, it is just stupid to do it and we decided to risk it and it blew up in our faces.

And you do because PAP says so? You keep posting as if your opinion is a fact, when it's simply not. You have an opinion based on PAP, which isn't anymore true than the first time you posted it. There have been studies on young pitchers and how to develop young arms, but I haven't read any article or seen any presentation that would lead me to believe that with all things mechanical aside natural durability is the single biggest factor in determining when a pitcher will get injured. It's not a matter of IF, it's a matter of WHEN, that's why some of us have no use for PAP, it doesn't tell us anything we don't already know. The body simply is not designed to make such violent and repetitive motions from an overhand position. Sheets' tear could be related to any number of factors outside of Yost over pitching him on 2 or 3 occasions in 3 months, and most certainly got worse post diagnosis. You continually blame Yost without knowledge of the full facts of what was said and done behind closed doors, and you continually ignore that Sheets himself was never happy about getting pulled out of a game.

 

I never claimed the shoulder injury led to the elbow injury, but's as plausible as anything else. I was simply throwing out "what if" scenarios. You're looking at the end result and drawing a conclusion based on a metric without giving consideration to all of the other variables that could possibly be involved. You keep referencing his total innings pitched when he was injured well before the end of the season. Using you or I as a basis of comparison for pitching injuries doesn't make any sense as we never had his talent or had our strength built up to the point of being able to pitch 200 innings. You would have rather treated him like he was an up and coming arm building 20 innings in a season, that's just not realistic given the limitations the Brewers had in rotation talent, just like this year Yo isn't only going to pitch 140 innings if he's healthy. Yo will pitch as much as he's able to, regardless what you or I have to say about it. Last year Parra hit the wall/ran out of gas, but he didn't damage his arm again... and he's had arm issues in the past. I'm not going to throw the manager under the bus based on a metric I believe to be flawed, because I believe the team has a poor history when it comes to diagnosing and treating injuries, and Sheets himself has been injured every season since 2004.

 

This goes way deeper than innings pitched in half a season and Yost.

[kramnoj]

So, if both these are true, what team(s) would be left for Sheets?

 

That's a good question. The Dodgers would have money if they didn't sign Manny. The Nationals seem to have money to spend. Neither one have been linked to Sheets that I know of, but I suppose they might be possibilities.

[Ennder]

I am posting like my opinion is fact? Again I'll link the quote I replied too.

 

Lets be realistic here... there is no way that Yost did so much damage to Sheets before the all-star break in 2008 that he caused the tear is Ben's arm

 

 

That is posting like your opinion is fact if I've ever seen it. You are saying that there is no way that Sheet's usage could have anything to do with his arm.

 

The fact is Sheets threw more pitches than almost any pitcher in baseball in the 1st half last year after coming off of 3 partial years in a row. It makes absolutely no sense to do that, sure that might be my opinion but it is one that I'd think most people would agree with. Whether the usage actually caused his injury or not it is impossible to know but regardless of the answer to that question the way they used him last year was a mistake.

[PeaveyFury]

So, if both these are true, what team(s) would be left for Sheets?

 

They really can't both be true. I think as each day passes, it becomes increasingly likely that Sheets takes a one year deal to come back to Milwaukee, simply because we're the only team that won't have to give a pick up to get him.

[JohnBriggs12]

Not exactly true PeaveyFury for two reasons. First, the Brewers were counting on the pick they'd receive for someone else signing Sheets, so in effect, they would be giving up a pick too.

 

Secondly (and this is exactly where this is going), Sheets could wait to sign until after the June draft, when in the words of Willy Wonka, he can say to the Brewers: "You get nothing sir". Sheets' value goes up if he waits until June, makes a couple Indy league starts to prove his health, and a half dozen teams develop holes in their rotation.

[strawbossisevil]

I don´t know if he´ll earn more if he waits until June, because then he´s only going to get paid for the months he pitches. Add to that fact, if he has further injury trouble, he won´t get anything. There is risk there, and he´s not likely to earn much more at all. Can we assume that he´ll make more for pitching 2/3 of a season than he would currently pitching a full season? I don´t think that is necessarily a safe bet.

[Fear The Chorizo]

A tidbit posted on ESPN Insider this morning basically rules the Rangers out of pursuing Ben Sheets. Also cites several "really, really good baseball people refusing to go nowhere near Sheets, while other pitchers without his credentials are being pursued". The justification for that being strong speculation that he's damaged goods. The report also added that if Rangers owner Tom Hicks wanted to commit to signing Sheets, there's no way he wouldn't be able to give him an acceptable offer, either by contract length or dollar amount.

 

If the team that currently employs the pitching coach that knows exactly what happened to Sheets last season doesn't want to even make a "below market value" offer, that's not exactly a ringing endorsement on his health. Lots of articles talking about what a potential bargain Sheets would be for teams if they sign him this offseason, but that goes out the window if he can't pitch. If the Brewers actually have some salary flexibility, I don't see why you use that up before the season starts on a guy who might give you 150+ quality IP, but could just as likely give you 50 IP and head to surgery.

 

The best thing for Sheets may be to see what the market looks like in June - it would take some large stones for him to sit out that long, but then again if he gets no offers at all he really doesn't have much choice.

[Invader3K]

I think if I had to say today, I would agree, Chorizo. I just can't see anyone committing more than one year to him at this point. If they were going to, they probably would have by now. I mean, pitchers in catchers report in less than a week, right? Maybe Sheets' best option at this point is to just keep rehabbing (or whatever he is doing now at this point) and hope someone has interest come summer.

[sgtcluels]

Bens injury must be weighing pretty heavy on all the teams. I wouldn't be surprised if he's signed closer to the start of ST after he works out and throws the balls for a few clubs. Hopefully he returns to the Brewers after talking to the like of Macha.

[JohnBriggs12]

I don´t know if he´ll earn more if he waits until June, because then he´s only going to get paid for the months he pitches. Add to that fact, if he has further injury trouble, he won´t get anything. There is risk there, and he´s not likely to earn much more at all. Can we assume that he´ll make more for pitching 2/3 of a season than he would currently pitching a full season? I don´t think that is necessarily a safe bet.

Your value goes up the more teams get involved. Some teams aren't involved because of health or his class A status or both. Right now nobody is involved, so in effect, his value is zero. If he waits until June, he can prove his health by pitching in an independent league for a month. He can also eliminate the draft pick compensation being an issue. It also gives him extra time to heal (if he needs it) from his latest injury. But the big thing is teams will come calling that have had a pitcher go down or who realize they are a pitcher short. Just look what the Brewers gave up to get CC. Also as Clemens showed, teams will pay a lot if they think a guy gets them over the hump, even if its 65 games into the season.

 

Is it a bit of a gamble for Sheets to wait? Sure, but we're talking about a guy who 2 months ago could have taken arby offer and got $12 million and who now apparently can't get $8 million. He's already lost.

[RyDogg66]

I dont see how "proving your health" playing indy ball for 3 months for next to nothing is any different than "proving your health" playing for the BRewers for 6 months and getting paid 5 million dollars to do it, with incentives. If anything, signing for one year and 5-6 million, plus incentives is a much, much better idea because he is just as likely to get hurt pitching for the Brewers as he is the St. Paul Saints.

 

The Indy Ball suggestion makes no sense.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Is it a bit of a gamble for Sheets to wait?

 

At this point I think the only thing Sheets is waiting on is an offer - something that aside from the arbys he declined from the Brewers I don't think he's received yet this offseason. He may have no choice but wait.

[brwrsfan]

Kinda makes you wonder what the Brewers would even say if he called up and wanted to resign with us for a 1 year deal.

 

Every day that passes makes me think that maybe it's the Brewers, and not necessarily Ben Sheets that doesn't want to continue their relationship. All along I've felt that Sheets felt disrespected by the Brewers and had no interest in returning. But it just makes no sense to me....unless that elbow is going to fall apart and it's really clear to everyone, you would think someone would make an acceptable 1 year offer.

[Fatter than Joey]

But it just makes no sense to me....unless that elbow is going to fall apart and it's really clear to everyone

 

But it also would have been clear to Sheets's agent as well... If it was that bad, they would have snatched Arby's.

[thebruce44]

Maybe he is just having a hard time swallowing his pride and resigning with the Brewers for 8 mill after he rejected 12 mill in arby. Thats like going back to your ugly ex-girlfriend after the supermodel date didn't work out (sorry the Brewers are the ugly girl in that metaphor).

 

And I hope Sheeter doesn't wait until June to join a team. If there is any pitcher in baseball who needs a complete spring training with a proper staff it is him. He pitches great he first few games, but then typically hits a pretty bad dead arm period if I remember correctly.

[Thurston Fluff]

The fact is Sheets threw more pitches than almost any pitcher in baseball in the 1st half last year after coming off of 3 partial years in a row. It makes absolutely no sense to do that, sure that might be my opinion but it is one that I'd think most people would agree with.

You don't think riding your best pitcher in his last year of a contract while in a playoff race makes any sense? I do not think most people would agree with you on that by any stretch of the imagination. That is the same as saying we shouldn't have used CC on three days rest at the end of the year since that could have injured himself, or he wouldn't be effective in the playoffs or it might scare teams from signing him in the off season. I get what you mean but to say it doesn't make any sense completely ignores the situation the Brewers were in. If not for Sheets work earlier in the year maybe we don't get to the point where CC could have made the difference at the end of the year. Then the chances we took with overworking Parra would have been in vain as well.

As far as the abuse points and such I guess I have to wonder if more likely than others is really as relevant as how likely an injury will happen in a given situation. To say they took a greater chance Sheets would get injured to get to the playoffs is not the same Sheets is likely to get hurt by doing so. If there is some sort of stat that shows payer X is, say 32%, likely to get hurt by the way he was used I think it would be more relevant than saying Player X is more likely to get injured than player Y then it might be more relevant to the argument of why a pitcher should not have been used in a certain manner in a particular year.

 

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Moderator note... closed in favor of new thread: Sheets watch, Part 2: May need surgery, Brewers may need to pay for it. The new thread has been added to the Designated Threads List.

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