Sheets watch (closed in deference to new thread)

[Invader3K]

I would be more than happy to resign Hardy and trade Escobar for pitching.

I'd tend to go with that at this point as well, if the right opportunity presented itself.

[rluzinski]

If hardy was so anxious to sign a below market deal with the Crew, Melvin would have already bought out his Arby years plus a year or two. Without knowing what Hardy will want in free agency, how can we determine what route we as fans would prefer? It's all about the money.

[Invader3K]

That seems fairly cynical at this juncture. For all we know they could already be quietly discussing an extension. When Braun signed his big contract, it was basically a surprise to all of us, as I recall. If he was a Boras client like Fielder, I could see what you mean...but for now, I see a player that the Brewers could have a very good chance of retaining in the mid-term.

[hauser42]

IF Brittle Ben had pitched well when CC was here maybe the Brewers would have won the division, but he failed to produce good outings time after time.

<------Blood boiling, smoke emanating from ears, slowing counting to ten... Okay, I'm good.

These type of numbers make my blood boil.

 

2nd Half IPs

CC 139

Bush 94

Sheets 87

Suppan 84

Parra 79

 

2nd Half wins

CC 11

Suppan 6

Bush 5

Sheets 4

Parra 2

 

2nd Half ERA

CC 1.82

Bush 3.34

Sheets 3.41

Parra 4.88

Suppan 5.98

 

For a guy getting paid like a top pitcher he was not performing like one. He also averaged under 6 IP in the second half of the season. For the bashing that goes on about Suppan why do people cut Sheets so much slack?? I dont doubt he has talent but he has not put it all together but for maybe two seasons. For all that money and his highest rank was 3rd on some key stats for a secong half that his team was in a playoff push? Sheets has a top end 1st half but come the second half and another stud pitcher on the staff he came closer to being an average pitcher than stepping his game up.

[SeriesFinale]

For the bashing that goes on about Suppan why do people cut Sheets so much slack??

2nd Half ERA

Sheets 3.41

Suppan 5.98

 

2nd Half IPs

Sheets 87

Suppan 84

 

And I'd argue that Sheets hardly gets "cut...so much slack" around here.

[trwi7]

hauser42 wrote:

---

2nd Half ERA

Sheets 3.41

Suppan 5.98

 

2nd Half IPs

Sheets 87

Suppan 84

hauser42 wrote:

---

For the bashing that goes on about Suppan why do people cut Sheets so much slack??

 

It's truly a mystery.

[PeaveyFury]

For a guy getting paid like a top pitcher he was not performing like one.

 

His 2nd half ERA was still well above average, and as you yourself pointed out, his innings pitched in the 2nd half were still the 3rd most on the team, even with his injury situation. He performed just fine in the 2nd half based on the numbers you chose to show us there.

[Oldcity]

A 3.41 ERA makes your blood boil?

[hauser42]

For a guy getting paid like a top pitcher he was not performing like one.

 

His 2nd half ERA was still well above average, and as you yourself pointed out, his innings pitched in the 2nd half were still the 3rd most on the team, even with his injury situation. He performed just fine in the 2nd half based on the numbers you chose to show us there.

Based on his salary he was not earning what he was being paid for. He should have had numbers slightly less than what CC was putting up. Under 6IP during the stretch run is above average for a #1 or #2 pitcher in the rotation. This is a good reason the bullpen suffers as they have to start pulling innings when the #2 starter struggles to get to the 6inning time after time.

 

Recall that Bush was getting bashed on this board last year as he struggled time after time to get deep into games, and yet because Sheets is putting the same numbers he is considered to be a much better option.

[trwi7]

Based on his salary he was not earning what he was being paid for.

Sheets' 2008 actual salary - $12.1 million

What he should've earned in 2008 - $20.6 million

http://www.fangraphs.com/...ayerid=710&position=P

 

 

[PeaveyFury]

Based on his salary he was not earning what he was being paid for. He should have had numbers slightly less than what CC was putting up.

 

Sheets was paid to be a very good pitcher, and in 2008, he was a very good pitcher. He was exceptional in the first half, and very good in the second half.

[hauser42]

Based on his salary he was not earning what he was being paid for. He should have had numbers slightly less than what CC was putting up.

 

Sheets was paid to be a very good pitcher, and in 2008, he was a very good pitcher. He was exceptional in the first half, and very good in the second half.

He gave this team almost the same amount of innings that Suppan did, and won less games. Wins are not a great tool for pitchers and that is what we hear all the time. Most of Sheets value came from the 1st half numbers, once again Ben could not put a complete season together and it was a chance to really put the Brewers to a new level last year.

There are not a lot of teams knocking the doors down to get Sheets signed right now. For all his talent you hear about and yet he is still sitting on the sideline without a team. Could it be that a lot teams see a guy that is good for a half year, maybe it is a string of injuries that he has had, or maybe teams feel he isn't as talented as a lot of people do.

 

 

[PeaveyFury]

He gave this team almost the same amount of innings that Suppan did, and won less games.

 

But the innings he gave were much higher quality. That's a huge distinction that you're choosing to ignore.

 

Most of Sheets value came from the 1st half numbers

 

That's because his first half was so great, not because his second half was poor or anything like that.

[TooLiveBrew]

Honestly hauser... are you still pushing this? There's just nothing that you can hang your hat on at this point. I mean, for pete's sake, you're reducing your argument to pitching wins & losses.

[hauser42]

Honestly hauser... are you still pushing this? There's just nothing that you can hang your hat on at this point. I mean, for pete's sake, you're reducing your argument to pitching wins & losses.

No when an ace of the staff puts up the same number of innings as 4th starter down the stretch I have an issue. Sheets was paid to carry the staff and he did not do it again. Suppan eats up the same amount of innings and gets blasted because they were not quality. Bottom line these guys are sent out to pitch and Sheets was doing that job the same amount as Suppan. Why is it that Sheets gets a pass too much based on what he might or could have done. I will be glad the day he finally is signed by another team.

[RyDogg66]

What if he and Suppan both pitched 120 innings in the second half? Would you be irate about that as well?

 

By the way, pitching a complete game and on 3 days rest for the last month of the season is not normal and will not be repeated by Sabathia. So if your baseline is Sabathia's line you are delusional. at most I would have expected 15 more innings from Sheets. Yes, we all know, you hate Sheets, that still does not make him a bad pitcher.

[Ennder]

I don't see why you are bothering to argue with hauser42 over Sheets at this point. This is the same guy who didn't post on the boards for months and then suddenly showed up with a bunch of Sheets bashing posts the minute he got hurt back in 07. I think he dislikes Sheets more than he even likes the Brewers.

[areacodes]

No when an ace of the staff puts up the same number of innings as 4th starter down the stretch I have an issue. Sheets was paid to carry the staff and he did not do it again.

You keep bringing up points that people have shown to be incorrect. If you look at the post from trwi7 you see that Sheets was actually underpaid last year according to fangraphs. Just repeating things over and over again does not make them true.

Suppan eats up the same amount of innings and gets blasted because they were not quality. Bottom line these guys are sent out to pitch and Sheets was doing that job the same amount as Suppan.

 

Even according to the numbers you posted, they weren't even close to quality innings for Suppan. On the other hand, Sheets put up (once again, according to the numbers you posted) a 3.41 ERA that was over 2.5 runs better than Suppan's. That might be why Soup is getting blasted more than Sheets.

Why is it that Sheets gets a pass too much based on what he might or could have done. I will be glad the day he finally is signed by another team.

 

Where is the free pass that Sheets gets? He is one of the more ostracized players on the Brewers over the past few years based solely on his weird injuries, if you feel that Sheets is getting a free pass we must be hearing different things or your concept of a pass is different than mine. Most people have been saying that they would like Sheets back because of apparently how little he might cost and the fact that he is the best available pitcher. I will only be glad if he is signed by a new team if a.) the Brewers have added a high quality starter and b.) if we're getting a 1st round pick for him. If neither is true I'd must rather have Sheets back. Of course, he has to want to come back as well.

[davego]

I suspect there are going to be portions of 2009 where we will miss Ben more then some suspect.

[RyDogg66]

I kind of sort of hope he signs in the NL (not in the central) and once or twice a year he shuts down the Brewers. well not really, but sort of.

[Oldcity]

Ha. I feel the same way RyDogg.

[sheetskout]

I suspect there are going to be portions of 2009 where we will miss Ben more then some suspect.

Agreed. I just hope he doesn't go to the Mets after all.

[jwill535]

I suspect there are going to be portions of 2009 where we he will miss Ben more then some suspect.

Fixed somewhat.

[DHonks]

I think that at this point Ben is worth a 2 year $20 million deal with incentives. I'd also tailor his throwing program along what we've done w/Cordero and Torres, and using Sabathia as a bit of a guide. That is, I'd work Ben slowly in spring training and hope for him to be a 5-6 inning starter in April, 6-7 in May/June, and hopefully have him prepared for a heavy workload in the last 5 weeks of the year. It seems that Ben often throws a lot early in the year, then breaks down. So why not come up with a program to have him available at the end of the year?

[TooLiveBrew]

No when an ace of the staff puts up the same number of innings as 4th starter down the stretch I have an issue

 

Well then your issue seems to be incorrectly calling him a 4th starter.

 

 

Bottom line these guys are sent out to pitch and Sheets was doing that job the same amount as Suppan.

 

Dude, this is from your own post:

 

2nd Half ERA

Sheets 3.41

...

Suppan 5.98