Sheets watch (closed in deference to new thread)

[naivin]

Fact is, for all we know (nothing), the guy has had surgery since the season ended. Seems likely we would have heard about that, but you just don't know. Maybe not that odd that he hasn't signed yet. It does however seem odd that there has hardly even been whispers of teams talking to him.

[endaround]

Except there has been. Oswalt supposedly went to management to see if they could redo his contract to sign Sheets.

[razzzorsharp]

I would be very content if they brought back Sheets (now with Hoffman) and called it a day.

[CportBadger]

I would be very content if they brought back Sheets (now with Hoffman) and called it a day.

 

Me too. Give Ben 1 yr $12M, with a vesting option for a 2nd year if he gets 180 innings.

[naivin]

Except there has been. Oswalt supposedly went to management to see if they could redo his contract to sign Sheets.

Yeah...that Oswalt recruiting talk started back in what, August? September? Beyond that, how does Oswalt going to management to ask them to sign his buddy constitute the team talking to him?

 

Astros owner Drayton McLane decided not to take Roy Oswalt up on his offer to re-structure his contract and defer money. McLane told Richard Justice of the Houston Chronicle that the contract "catches up with you at some point," regardless of when it's paid... According to MLB.com's Alyson Footer, McLane said adding a top pitcher to join Oswalt in the Houston rotation is "just not in the cards."

 

Sounds like Oswalt was certainly interested. Unfortunately, the team wasn't.

[Ennder]

Ennder I know you've been very anit-Sheets is injury prone to a certain extent and I respect that. Can you at least admit it's hurt his free agency status in a very large way?

 

Yeah I'm sure it has.

 

This also isn't really about Ben Sheets to me, I could care less whether we sign him or not. I'm not some huge Sheets fan with posters of him hanging around my house and whatnot. We could be talking about any other pitcher and this is what my opinion would be. In general fans seem to think that pitchers are a lot healthier on average than they really are and in Sheets specific case the fact that one injury bridged two seasons seems to make people think he is more injury prone than he really is.

 

I also really hate the way the Brewers have handled their starters in general, I think management is the cause for a lot of the teams inability to keep starters healthy over the past 10+ years.

[rluzinski]

The Yankees were and probably still are interested in Sheets. He's probably not their first choice... or anyone's until one or two more guys are signed.

[TooLiveBrew]

Sounds like Oswalt was certainly interested. Unfortunately, the team wasn't.

 

http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

 

This also isn't really about Ben Sheets to me, I could care less whether we sign him or not. I'm not some huge Sheets fan with posters of him hanging around my house and whatnot. We could be talking about any other pitcher and this is what my opinion would be. In general fans seem to think that pitchers are a lot healthier on average than they really are and in Sheets specific case the fact that one injury bridged two seasons seems to make people think he is more injury prone than he really is.

 

I think there's such a strong opinion among many fans that Ben Sheets is so injury-prone, and that it's largely due to the emotional investment we make in following the Brewers. When it's pointed out that perhaps Sheets isn't all that much more injury-prone than people believe, I think many can be quick to assume the people trying to contextualize Sheets's health are just apologists & out to take on the popular view just because it's popular. Really imo, it's just that the popular view on Sheets's durability tends to gloss over some important details.

 

Now, from that point, the discussion tends to degenerate into, 'I can't believe you're trying to say Sheets isn't injury-prone!', but when he's examined amongst his peers, the reality is that he's not this huge injury freak. The Burnett example is a great one. Why he's considered a better choice than Sheets is baffling. Is it that he's played (basically) on the East Coast his whole career? Because that's all I can come up with. The guy makes Sheets look like Iron Man.

[Chio151]

I think there's such a strong opinion among many fans that Ben Sheets is so injury-prone, and that it's largely due to the emotional investment we make in following the Brewers. When it's pointed out that perhaps Sheets isn't all that much more injury-prone than people believe, I think many can be quick to assume the people trying to contextualize Sheets's health are just apologists & out to take on the popular view just because it's popular. Really imo, it's just that the popular view on Sheets's durability tends to gloss over some important details.

 

Now, from that point, the discussion tends to degenerate into, 'I can't believe you're trying to say Sheets isn't injury-prone!', but when he's examined amongst his peers, the reality is that he's not this huge injury freak. The Burnett example is a great one. Why he's considered a better choice than Sheets is baffling. Is it that he's played (basically) on the East Coast his whole career? Because that's all I can come up with. The guy makes Sheets look like Iron Man.

Great post. Thank you for trying to look at it objectively. For me, it is about emotional investment and constantly being disappointed. I was so frustrated that after all these years we finally made it to the playoffs and fittingly he wasn't available to help. He didn't even seem too bothered.

 

To me, it's not the time he's missed or how he was injured - it's the why. I'm of the impression that he does not do much offseason conditioning and does not go the extra mile to stay healthy. It's probably the wrong impression, but it's what I've got to work with.

 

If he comes back, I'll be all for it though.

[Oldcity]

For me, it is about emotional investment and constantly being disappointed. I was so frustrated that after all these years we finally made it to the playoffs and fittingly he wasn't available to help. He didn't even seem too bothered.

He was tearing up at the end of the season because he thought he wouldn't be back. He also had a quote along the lines of "This makes up for all the lows of the previous years." I don't think there's any evidence that he wasn't bothered, and I think there's evidence to the contrary.

[bklynbrewcrew]

Sheets was very bothered that he couldnt pitch in the playoffs. He was also very emotional about the possibility of not being back. He has been a great Brewer and I really hope he comes back.

[JJHardy7]

In general fans seem to think that pitchers are a lot healthier on average than they really are and in Sheets specific case the fact that one injury bridged two seasons seems to make people think he is more injury prone than he really is.

 

I think there's such a strong opinion among many fans that Ben Sheets is so injury-prone, and that it's largely due to the emotional investment we make in following the Brewers. When it's pointed out that perhaps Sheets isn't all that much more injury-prone than people believe, I think many can be quick to assume the people trying to contextualize Sheets's health are just apologists & out to take on the popular view just because it's popular. Really imo, it's just that the popular view on Sheets's durability tends to gloss over some important details.

 

I'll take these two points and turn it a different way. What if Sheets played and performed the same way in New York as he did with Milwaukee...and had the same injuries. Would it flow under the radar? I think to a certain extent his specific injuries are why some fans feel the way they do. I he's looked at as a 'wuss' or those things with some of the injuries and I don't think Milwaukee fans differ from how he'd be viewed by those fans elsewhere. I'm not saying those injuries weren't serious or wouldn't cause any pitcher to miss time, but I think if he would've broke a leg off a line drive instead of some of the less 'intense' injuries he had he'd be viewed differently. I hope I'm making sense with that.

 

I think Sheets is injury-prone (not like most injury-prone pitchers), but I'd still sign him (unless theres info we don't know). I just think it has to be accepted chances are he won't be healthy the full season in order to not have the feeling of disappointment some fans still carry with Sheets. He's a legit #1 when healthy, but he's just had some bad luck that seems to have continued year to year the past few years. He's not injury prone like othe rpitchers who have major arm issues, so that should've been the big plus with him. The small market Sheets plays in may have some factor in why he's thought of the way he is by fans, but I just think some fans can't get over the strange injuries he's had. I agree there is a difference with pitchers who've had arm injuries over their career and Sheets.

[Invader3K]

I have been hard on Sheets on this board (not as much as some), but if Melvin could sign him to a 1 or 2 year deal for a reasonable amount, I'd be fine with it. Unless the team suspects that he won't be able to pitch a large portion of the season due to his injury, but we haven't gotten any indication to that effect.

[Chio151]

For me, it is about emotional investment and constantly being disappointed. I was so frustrated that after all these years we finally made it to the playoffs and fittingly he wasn't available to help. He didn't even seem too bothered.

He was tearing up at the end of the season because he thought he wouldn't be back. He also had a quote along the lines of "This makes up for all the lows of the previous years." I don't think there's any evidence that he wasn't bothered, and I think there's evidence to the contrary.

Okay, then I'm wrong. I just get the sense that there isn't a lot of loyalty or appreciation back to the organization. Hopefully I'm wrong.

[logan82]

Unless the team suspects that he won't be able to pitch a large portion of the season due to his injury, but we haven't gotten any indication to that effect.

 

We don't know the extent of Sheets current injury so in my opinion it doesn't really pay to take it into consideration much. I am sure any contract he is given will take that injury into consideration. Unless we have had the wool pulled over our eyes, Sheets' current injury should heal on it's own. I will admit that it doesn't pay for any of the parties involved to give full disclosure on his current injury.

 

Ignoring his current injury, I think Sheets has been injury prone. I don't think any of his injuries point towards him being any more injury prone than a normal pitcher in the future. His injuries are mostly non-pitching related unlike Burnett's injuries. Burnett has missed lots of time with pitching elbow and shoulder related injuries. Burnett's injuries would worry me more since they could lead to a drop off in production while Sheets' do not.

 

Others have pointed out that we shouldn't expect a pitcher to go 200+ innings on a regular basis. Getting even 150+ innings out of Sheets adds more to this team than letting many pitchers cover those innings.

[BrewCrewForever]

Hoffman deal is done, time to get a starter Doug. Sheets is my #1 choice.

[Bernie Crewer]

I disagree with the people that have contended that we do not know the extent of Sheets injury...if we didn't then our training staff and Doug Melvin should be fired because we offered him arbitration and $9.7M guaranteed for '09. He made 12.125M in '08 and at worst could only have his salary lowered by 20%. The reason Ben Sheets will likely be a Brewer is that teams wanting to sign him are reluctant to give up their 1st round pick for a 1-2 year investment in a Pitcher coming off of injury. Same scenario why guys like Cruz and Hudson are unemployed at present as teams would have to give up their #1 or #2 pick for a short term deal...who wants to give that up in these uncertain times.

 

I love Ben Sheets and have my fingers and toes crossed that we get him back. If Ben has a fault it's that he has not taken care of himself physically like he probably should have. I would be willing to bet that Ben Sheets is not too happy with the league for passing him up and it just may motivate him like he's never been. No one can question this guys heart, as anyone who honestly follows the Brewers knows that he would throw 200 pitches a game if they'd let him. Ever seen Yost go to the mound in the 8th or 9th when he has a lead to take him out. Ben is shooting lasers and the intensity that oozes out of him is more than any Pitcher I've ever seen who is not on steriods (Clemons doesn't count!). Injury prone? Maybe, but I think we could be getting a caged Tiger who is hot and bothered by what's transpired this offseason, or namely what has not transpired. Doug Melvin should step in and make a push and get him in under a one year incentive laden deal with an option. I'd be giddy...the only other team that scares me is New York as they do not care if they lose their #4 pick.

[Invader3K]

At this point Sheets is probably the best available free agent pitcher left on the market who the Brewers could realistically get. I would not cry if he never pitches for the Brewers again, but like I said before, if they can get him for a reasonable price, I don't see a reason not to do it. As far as the financial aspect, I have a hard time believing the Brewers can't afford it given all the reports we've heard on their rosy financial outlook and new deal with Potawatomie (sp?).

[MNBrew]

Here's a good Buster Olney blog entry on ESPN.com about the 22 Type A/B free agents who turned down arbitration.

 

He mentions Ben Sheets as one of the 4-5 biggest names in this "purgatory" that aren't getting deals done because no one wants to surrender their top pick. It may just be enough to get Sheets to reconsider the Brewers in his future, even if it's just a short, incentive-heavy deal. In the short run, the Brewers could stand to be big winners here. And if Sheets can stay healthy & productive, in the long run so could Sheets.

 

Derek Lowe is much older but still quite good. Otherwise, I'd be a whole lot more excited about Sheets and his chances for success than about any half-decent remaining FA pitcher, such as Oliver Perez, Jon Garland, Paul Byrd, or Randy Wolf.

 

It's also telling that of those 22 FAs, only 6 Type A guys have signed -- and 4 of 'em w/ NY teams. Of the 8 total who have signed, other than Raul Ibanez, the remaining 7 have signed with an NY, LA, or Chi team. Shows where the biggest money is, I suppose, as well as perhaps the greatest value in splashy, big-coverage Hot Stove headlines.

[reillymcshane]

Assuming Sheets elbow looks okay, I hope the team can get him a good deal for two years or one year and an option. Perhaps something like $10 million for 2009, with incentives that add on $5 million if he reaches 180 innings. I think 180+ innings of Sheets would help make the crew a top notch team, and if he reached that, he'd be getting some good scratch. Maybe then have a 2010 option at $15 million kick in if he gets 180 innings. Or perhaps a 2 year deal at $10 million a year with the extra $5 million a year if he reaches the 180 innings. Something so we're not taking a total bath if he's injured, but also give us some relief if the elbow ends up worse than we think.

 

Sheets injuries have been frustrating, but I like to see loyalty rewarded when possible, and in his case, if he does come through, we're a whole different team. It's a lot of money - but I think the risk is worth it.

 

Two major caveats - Sheets has to want to return to Milwaukee. I don't really want a disgruntled player. If he wants to move, let him just say so and we thank each other and part ways. Also, as mentioned, we have to be convinced Sheets' arm is on track to make a good comeback. If there's doubt, don't take such a big risk. If sheets elbow is a major risk, I hope the team can offer him a lower contract with mucho incentives - $5 million for the season and an additional $10 million as he pitches more innings.

 

Sheets, Galardo, Parra, Bush, Suppan and McClung would be a solid six starters for the next two years.

[PeaveyFury]

Assuming Sheets elbow looks okay

 

While I agree with your thoughts and premise, this is clearly the multi-million dollar issue right now. His camp must not be concerned about it enough to have declined arbitration (or at least they weren't concerned back at that time), but there is clearly a reason why all you hear about any teams' pursuit of the 2nd-best free agent pitcher is crickets.

 

Even if the team offers an incentive-laded deal as you suggest, they'd better be darn sure that they can at least tack a club option onto the contract so that they can get something out of the investment if he misses a chunk of 09.

[Fatter than Joey]

His camp must not be concerned about it enough to have declined arbitration

 

What puzzles me, is that I assume that both sides are looking at the same medical information.

 

I just think, Sheets does not want to return to the Brewers and that is the primary reason he declined Arby's -- He may have made a irrational decision....

[naivin]

His camp must not be concerned about it enough to have declined arbitration

 

What puzzles me, is that I assume that both sides are looking at the same medical information.

 

I just think, Sheets does not want to return to the Brewers and that is the primary reason he declined Arby's -- He may have made a irrational decision....

Would also explain why the Brewers offered it, even assuming they had no desire to bring him back. If they knew he'd decline...get the draft pick.

[Invader3K]

Eh...I don't know if they were being that "sneaky." I think they figured they'd either get the pick or get a good pitcher at a pretty affordable 1 year contract. Win/win situation, basically.

[Fatter than Joey]

Would also explain why the Brewers offered it, even assuming they had no desire to bring him back.

 

I think the Brewers had a desire to bring Sheets back, if the price was right -- They probably figured they would be outbid.