Sheets watch (closed in deference to new thread)

[logan82]

Menace II Sobriety wrote:

ESPN and the other networks never cover the draft pick allocation either because I doubt they know how it works either.

Maybe somebody should ask Tom Haudricourt.

[sbrylski]

...none of us have actually read the language to know for sure.

Getting tired of all the misinformation...

 

 

From the CBA, page 74:

(5) Quota

 

(a) Clubs shall be limited in the number of Type A and B Players, as defined below, they may subsequently sign to contracts. The number of signings permitted shall be related to the number of Players electing free agency under this Section B. If there are 14 or less such Players, no Club may sign more than one Type A or B Player. If there are from 15 to 38 such Players, no Club may sign more than two Type A or B Players. If there are from 39 to 62 such Players, no Club may sign more than three Type A or B Players. If there are more than 62 such Players, the Club quotas shall be increased accordingly. There shall be no restrictions on the number of unranked Players that a Club may sign to contracts.

 

(b) Irrespective of the provisions of subparagraph (a) above, a Club shall be eligible to sign at least as many Type A and B Players as it may have lost through Players having become free agents under this Section at the close of the season just concluded.

 

This year there are 29 Type A players this year and 38 Type B players, for a total of 67. (Link to list from US Today)

 

That means we are in the range of "Club quotas should be increased accordingly." It appears that the quota increases by one each time the number of ranked free agents increase by 24, after the initial 1-14 range. That would mean this year the number of free agents fall into the 63 to 86 range, which would correspond to a total of 4 ranked free agents (A or B) allowed to be signed by each team. Even if it doesn't simply increase by 24 player intervals, I think its safe to assume 67 is close enough to the top of the 39-62 range that the quota would only be increased by one.

 

It appears provision B overrides A, so when the number of Type A and B free agents lost by a club exceeds the league wide team quotas, the number of free agents that team lost becomes their quota. The Yankees lost three ranked free agents this offseason (LINK):

 

Bobby Abreu - Type A

Andy Pettite - Type A

Ivan Rodriguez - Type B

 

Mussina retired, so he is not considered losing a free agent.

 

My conclusion is that the Yankees (and any other team who have not lost more than 4 ranked free agents) is allowed to sign 4 total free agents ranked either Type A or Type B.

 

Teixeira, Sabathia, and Burnett, all Type A's, are the three the Yankees have signed already (LINK). They are able to sign one more, including Ben Sheets.

 

 

EDIT: Hang on, my count of how many Type A and Type B free agents are on the market this season may be off. I've seen three lists, all have a different number. Can anyone help? Keith Law claims as many as 93, which seems too high, and also says that would put the quota at 8 - LINK

 

EDIT2: I think its pretty safe to say its 4 or higher and the Yankees can definitely go after Sheets if they were inclined.

[PeaveyFury]

Thanks for doing the leg-work on that, sbrylski, that was very helpful.

[kramnoj]

I mean, at least 20 teams should have inquired about his physical status by this point - right?

 

There aren't 20 teams that have that much money to spend this offseason, at least not for a SP. There are maybe a handful of teams. The Rangers seem to want him, but their lack of an offer seems to indicate they may not have the funds to do it. The Braves were willing to offer big money to Burnett but I haven't heard anything regarding Sheets. The Yankees were interested, but got other pitchers. I haven't seen much indication that other teams are willing to spend $10M on a pitcher.

[Invader3K]

I think the Yankees are still planning on having Pettitte return to the fold, somehow, even though he rejected their one year offer yesterday. If they don't retain him, they'll probably just let Hughes and Kennedy and whoever else they have battle it out for the fifth spot.

[rluzinski]

We have never heard any time line on how long his recovery will be - or for that matter, the full extent of his injury.

 

So, it wasn't a muscle tear in his forearm, after all? Was there a suggestion somewhere that this wasn't "the full extent of his injury"? That's all I've ever heard. Since then, the Brewers offered, and Sheets declined arbitration. Unless we want to get into conspiracy theory territory (Melvin knows Sheets is more injured but had a handshake agreement to offer him arbitration), it seems clear that Sheets' injury wasn't deemed more serious at that point.

 

Last I heard, Sheets wouldn't need surgery, just time. I never heard how long but I guess I didn't picture him being able to groove 95 MPH fastballs on January 6th. Is he progressing slower than expected? It's possible, I suppose. I just don't see the supposed disinterest in him on the free agent market as very strong evidence that the injury is worse than expected. The market overall for multi-year deals is very soft. If Sheets is still holding out for one (which was always my assumption, since he would have just accepted arbitration if not), he knows he may have to wait even a couple more months. There's still plenty of players out waiting the market out.

[MillerParkSouth]

because we offered Sheets arbitration, is there a certain deadline that he would have to sign by if we were to bring him back? I thought I read something about certain players not being able to resign with their current/former team until May 1st if a deal isn't done by a certain date. I could be way off on that though.

[Ennder]

As a type A free agent only teams who hope to compete this year and had holes in their rotation and could afford $10M+ a year and weren't in on the other big name pitchers would have been interested in Sheets. That is a small handful of teams. Once Lowe signs I'd think Sheets will start talking to more people.

[Invader3K]

because we offered Sheets arbitration, is there a certain deadline that he would have to sign by if we were to bring him back? I thought I read something about certain players not being able to resign with their current/former team until May 1st if a deal isn't done by a certain date. I could be way off on that though.

I believe that's an old rule that was done away with.

[RyDogg66]

Does Damaso MArte count in the Yankees amount of Type A and B free agents? Marte did file I believe.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Last I heard, Sheets wouldn't need surgery, just time. I never heard how long but I guess I didn't picture him being able to groove 95 MPH fastballs on January 6th.

 

Sheets wasn't grooving anything close to 95 mph since around the all star break. I don't want to play conspiracy theorist, but his situation screams for a problematic injury to be covered up - FA pitcher looking to cash in, took a painkilling shot that nobody found out about until he simply wasn't able to keep taking the ball every 5th day, Brewers team had no reason to report the extent or recovery timetable for this injury - I'd all but guarantee that if 2008 wasn't the last year of his deal, the Brewers would have pushed to DL him for significant time during the 2nd half of last season if it meant a better chance of him being 100% in 2009.

 

I'm not actually saying he's covering a significant injury up, but to this point there's been little to suggest otherwise. When a guy who's injured more often than Sheets (Burnett) signs an 80 million-plus longterm deal, something fishy's in the water when Sheets can't even get an offer close to it.

 

There's still plenty of players out waiting the market out.

 

Those players aren't comparable to Sheets, who if he's healthy is in the prime of his career and is a legit #1 starting pitcher. The two other free agents who fit that bill (Sabathia, and Burnett - who really shouldn't be considered an ace) signed for big time money early on in free agency.

[naivin]

Sheets wasn't grooving anything close to 95 mph since around the all star break. I don't want to play conspiracy theorist, but his situation screams for a problematic injury to be covered up - FA pitcher looking to cash in, took a painkilling shot that nobody found out about until he simply wasn't able to keep taking the ball every 5th day, Brewers team had no reason to report the extent or recovery timetable for this injury - I'd all but guarantee that if 2008 wasn't the last year of his deal, the Brewers would have pushed to DL him for significant time during the 2nd half of last season if it meant a better chance of him being 100% in 2009.

I love a good conspiracy theory, and this one actually makes quite a bit of sense. Brewers were trying to make the playoffs and had little interest in re-signing him so were more than willing to play along. The arbitration offer is the one thing I can't quite reconcile.

[Ennder]

To me it has all the signs of a bad manager pushing a pitcher coming off 3 partial years and the pitcher hitting the wall because of it. Sheets should have been babied and instead Yost kept throwing him out there the extra inning.

[SeriesFinale]

One bit of good news (in my eyes) is that the Astros look to be done for the off-season.

 

I'd assumed that was a strong possible destination for him, and I was dreading the idea of the Brew Crew playing him with regularity next year.

[rluzinski]

Those players aren't comparable to Sheets, who if he's healthy is in the prime of his career and is a legit #1 starting pitcher.

 

But Sheets isn't comparable to most of them because he ended 2008 hurt. That's the whole point. If Sheets hadn't gotten hurt, we wouldn't be having this conversation. If I were a GM and all signs pointed to Sheets' injury healing on its own in time for the start of the season, I would STILL prefer to wait until he could give me a workout a prove it. And if Sheets is still holding out for that possibility of a multiyear deal, he's going to have to wait as well.

 

IMO, all the facts point to Sheets not hiding anything at this point. When Sheets was finally shutdown, it was explained that Sheets and the organization was fully aware of his injury. Were they lying? And I haven't seen anyone even try to resolve the notion that Sheets knows he's seriously hurt but was offered and declined arbitration. It just doesn't add up but then I guess it wouldn't be a conspiracy theory if it did.

[naivin]

To me it has all the signs of a bad manager pushing a pitcher coming off 3 partial years and the pitcher hitting the wall because of it. Sheets should have been babied and instead Yost kept throwing him out there the extra inning.

That's possible, although there has been no indication of that from anyone involved. If that were the case, I suspect we would have heard, at the very least, some sort of veiled reference from Sheets or his agent given that MLB GM's seem to be treating him as if he has lepracy. If he simply hit the wall which I think is very plausable, it would seem logical that teams would be puruing him more aggressively now. They're not, which would certainly seem to indicate injury. Funny thing is...from the moment he arrived, everyone seemed to endorse the idea of pushing CC for every pitch they could possibly squeeze out of him because the Brewers were not going to sign him. In retrospect it seems pretty clear the Brewers never had any intention of re-signing Sheets either. Perhaps they simply were taking the same approach with him (For the record, I don't believe Yost would have ever under any circumstances, knowing jeopordize a guy's career or earning potential).

 

As much as many here try to make excuses and explain away all the time the guy has missed the last 4 seasons, when it comes to GM's putting their money (and their jobs) on the line to sign him, it seems as if nobdy - not even the big money teams, are willing to do so. If this were a couple of years ago, he would probably have a nice contract by now, but in the present environment, with 8 seasons already under his belt , 4 of them injury plagued (including the shoulder and elbow double whammy), teams just don't see him as a good risk.

[Invader3K]

Was Yost also responsible for all his previous injuries? Come on...I think pointing the finger at the manager for a guy getting hurt is pretty weak.

[PeaveyFury]

Come on...I think pointing the finger at the manager for a guy getting hurt is pretty weak.

 

It's not really a question of blaming him for Sheets getting hurt, it's wondering how long Sheets was hurt before he stopped pitching.

[DHonks]

Peavey, I was told that Sheets was hurting in June, but wound up with the tear in August. I think it's interesting that MLB front offices seem to be thinking the same way that I have been...they're very reluctant to give big money to a guy coming off of an obscure muscle tear.

[Ennder]

Was Yost also responsible for all his previous injuries? Come on...I think pointing the finger at the manager for a guy getting hurt is pretty weak.

You say that like Sheets has an extensive serious injury list instead of one major and a bunch of minor injuries. He had an injury in 2005 after being top 10 in PAP in 2004 while pitching with a bad back, that injury was supposed to last a year and he tried to come back from it early and aggravated it, then was healthy the 2nd half of that season. He was healthy the next year other than a jammed finger and some minor little injuries that can happen to anyone. The next year he is healthy most of the season though again in the top 5 in PAP and he hits the wall as expected before the end of the year.

 

I blame Yost and the Brewer management in general for Sheets and for Capuano as well while we are at it. No way in heck they should have been pushing Capuano to pitch on 3 days rest in 05 to try to get him 20 wins when he had arm problems in the past and it was his first full major league season. Go back a few years and I blame them for Eldred breaking down so early too, they put way too many innings on his arm at a young age.

 

I should hope they have learned from their mistakes at this point and will baby Gallardo and Parra at least somewhat this year to stretch them out into the 200+ innings club.

[Fear The Chorizo]

If I were a GM and all signs pointed to Sheets' injury healing on its own in time for the start of the season, I would STILL prefer to wait until he could give me a workout a prove it.

 

I agree with that 100% - in order for Sheets to get a multiyear deal close to what he's worth when healthy, he's going to have to prove at some point that he's healthy going into the 2009 season. That means he's going to have to wait until March to sign a deal.

 

You say that like Sheets has an extensive serious injury list instead of one major and a bunch of minor injuries.

 

I'm kind of sick of this argument - there really aren't many pitchers who find a way to have lengthy careers that have an extensive serious injury list....more than one serious injury probably means retirement for most pitchers. People can look at it from whatever perspective they want, the facts are that over the first four seasons of his career, Sheets averaged 206 IP, the last four he averaged 150 IP. At 7 innings per start on average, that's close to 2 months of missed time per season. IMO, any injury that keeps a player from doing his job and performing to his abilities is a major issue

[Ennder]

I'm kind of sick of this argument - there really aren't many pitchers who find a way to have lengthy careers that have an extensive serious injury list....more than one serious injury probably means retirement for most pitchers

 

Fair enough but on the other hand there are very few pitchers in baseball that don't have at least one major injury at some point in their career and even fewer that don't have multiple minor injuries. I showed the numbers earlier so I won't go through it again but there are only something like 8 pitchers in baseball that have gone 200 IP each of the last 3 years. It isn't common to go 200+ IP like people think it is.

[JJHardy7]

I showed the numbers earlier so I won't go through it again but there are only something like 8 pitchers in baseball that have gone 200 IP each of the last 3 years. It isn't common to go 200+ IP like people think it is.

 

Ennder I know you've been very anit-Sheets is injury prone to a certain extent and I respect that. Can you at least admit it's hurt his free agency status in a very large way? Or do you think it's something that the general public doesn't know yet? As I've said before, I'm not a huge Sheets guy and I understand he hasn't had a ton of serious arm injuries, but to me whether it's a hang nail or a tommy john injury it all becomes somewhat the same over time -- not being able to take the mound. I like your point about the 200 IP the past three years, but I personally am not looking for Sheets to do that every year. I would just have liked to see some healthy years recently and we can't go back to 2004 -- that was five years ago. Either the rest of baseball is seeing Sheets as injury prone or his injury at the end of the year is more severe than what has been reported. I understand the points that some GMs would wait to see it heal, but if he can't even get a two year deal this whole thing seems very strange. Again, I respect your opinion Ennder, but IMO Sheets has shown he's injury prone. How many more so called 'fluke' injuries can a guy have before he gets that label? Or is non-pitching realted injury prone a better label? I don't want to come off harsh or anything. I just get the feeling that Sheets doesn't have the best reputation around baseball or there is evidence within some circles that he may not be ready to pitch at the beginning of 2009.

[endaround]

Its more that m,ost people had Sheets ranked as the #4 FA pitcher. Why they think Burnett is some great pitcher given his health issues is amazing but he's been valued higher than high forever. So 2 rated above Sheets have signed. Nothing really absurd with that. Keep in mind that its only recently that we are actually starting to see a good number of signings all due to Sabathia and Texeria finally getting their deals done. Sheets might haev to wait for Lowe to sign. And keep in mind Dunn is still out their and he has no injury concerns about him.

[naivin]

Fact is, for all we know (nothing), the guy has had surgery since the season ended. Seems likely we would have heard about that, but you just don't know. Maybe not that odd that he hasn't signed yet. It does however seem odd that there has hardly even been whispers of teams talking to him.