Sheets watch (closed in deference to new thread)

[rluzinski]

I don't think the Brewers would have offered arbitration, now would Sheets have rejected it, if there were some undisclosed complication regarding Sheets' elbow. Conspiracy theory kind of stuff, I guess.

 

I see Sheets as a #2 type starting pitcher ( at least in overall projected value) and would pay him as one. That's what a 3.6 ERA over 160 basically is, I think Assuming that a replacement level pitcher gets you a 5.25 ERA (that may be too low?):

 

3.6/160 = 4.0/210 = 3 wins over replacement = 1 win over ave = $15 mil/year.

 

If Melvin would rather have the 4 ERA pitcher that should be expected to pitch the whole year, great. The question is, who? If it's a afree agent, how long would the deal have to be and what kiind of compensation would he lose. If it's via a trade, what talent does he lose?

[bklynbrewcrew]

Unless Doug knows something about Sheets health that we dont know he would be a fool to not sign him. The perception that Sheets is always injured by fans and media alike are way overblown. If we can keep Sheets to go along with Gallardo and Parra we can still have a good rotation. If not we will have to sign a lower rung free agent or create other holes by trading Prince or JJ. At this point in time I believe that Melvin got caught unprepared and we are going to pay a huge price.

[jjfanec]

At this point in time I believe that Melvin got caught unprepared and we are going to pay a huge price.

The question is who have we missed out on because of CC signing with the Yankees? No free agent pitchers were going to sign have signed. There have been no trades to speak of and the one that has been talked about we cannot get in on anyway because Peavy does not want to come here. Maybe we have missed preliminary talks with some people but you can always jump in on talks, and not offering Sheets may hurt us. However, I doubt Sheets will be a quick sign do to injury questions and he is available to us now just like he was a couple weeks ago.

[strawbossisevil]

Would that price be bklyn...Paying for Garland http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif. I am sure Melvin didn't put all of his eggs into the CC basket. He had to know that it was a toss up at best that we'd get CC. I say give the guy the benefit of the doubt until the offseason is over. Patience in the offseason is important because there is so much that goes on behind the scene that we just don´t know about.

[bklynbrewcrew]

Im trying to be patient but if Sheets signs with the yankees I will break down and cry. Please Doug sign Ben and keep him away from the darkside. My heart cant take seeing Ben Sheets in a yankee uniform it just cant.

[joepepsi]

Maybe Sheets has made it clear to Melvin that he's ready to move on. Melvin doesn't want to say that out loud out of respect, so we get these veiled references to talking with Ben and wishing him well.

[jvrocksaz]

I am sorry if this has been covered already... Now that the Yankees have Sabathia and we get their #1, what if they also sign Burnett and Sheets... What pick do we get for Sheets? Do we get their #2 or does Toronto get it? Besides the sandwich picks that is....

[PeaveyFury]

what if they also sign Burnett and Sheets... What pick do we get for Sheets? Do we get their #2 or does Toronto get it? Besides the sandwich picks that is....

 

Toronto would get their 2nd.

[jvrocksaz]

Thanks for the clarification PeaveyFury... Let's hope the Rangers make a play on Sheets then! At least that way we should get a 2nd for him...

[sheetskout]

Thanks for the clarification PeaveyFury... Let's hope the Rangers make a play on Sheets then! At least that way we should get a 2nd for him...

Yeah. I'll take that. It's actually a better fit for Sheets too but the Rangers may not want to ante up on pitching with Holland waiting to be called up. Derek Holland dominated AA for the Rangers last year and has little left to prove. Maybe a year at AAA.

[jaybird2001wi]

As great a pitcher as Ben Sheets is and how much he has done for the Brewers organization, is it really worth the trouble to invest in a pitcher who just started more than 30 games for the first time since 2004?

I am not contesting Sheets' ability as a pitcher, as he has proven to be an ace pitcher when healthy, but the guy simply can not last an entire season. Time and time again, Sheets gets injured when we need him the most at the end of the season when the pennant is on the line or when we are in a playoff chase. Sheets was the ultimate choke artist and proved to be anti-clutch in his last two starts against the Cubs, the team we chased all year, by getting injured and not lasting more than 3 innings in those last two starts.

Sheets will be missed a lot for his quality starts, but his injury history has made my blood boil. Where was Sheets in 2007 when we were clinging onto the wild card/division chase? He was on the disabled list. Where was Sheets when we needed a simple victory at the end of the season in 2008 to prevent us all from going into cardiac arrest on the FINAL DAY of the season? Injured.

There is no question that he is an ace, and has proven to be one in mid-season, but how many times will he come down with ridiculous injuries? How many times has he failed at the end of the season due to injury when we count on him the most? He has only eclipsed 200 innings three times in his career (2002-04). Maybe I am just trying to convince myself in order to cushion the blow of inevitably losing him to free agency, but a part of me always waited when he came down with his injury during every start. A part of me always told me not to count on him at the end of the year.

[joepepsi]

Time and time again, Sheets gets injured when we need him the most at the end of the season when the pennant is on the line or when we are in a playoff chase.

Actually that only happened once, 2008.

Sheets was the ultimate choke artist and proved to be anti-clutch in his last two starts against the Cubs, the team we chased all year, by getting injured and not lasting more than 3 innings in those last two starts.

So getting injured makes you a "choke artist" and "anti-clutch"?

[TooLiveBrew]

I am not contesting Sheets' ability as a pitcher, as he has proven to be an ace pitcher when healthy, but the guy simply can not last an entire season.

 

I won't even touch the 'clutch' stuff. Sheets provides more value even at ~ 160 IP than someone like Suppan at 200. Rluz has posted on this many times, but when you add in ~ 40 IP from replacement level to equal out the IP discrepancy, Sheets is good enough that he's still a better choice.

 

 

Where was Sheets in 2007 when we were clinging onto the wild card/division chase? He was on the disabled list. Where was Sheets when we needed a simple victory at the end of the season in 2008 to prevent us all from going into cardiac arrest on the FINAL DAY of the season? Injured.

 

Clearly the 55 starts he made in 2007 & 2008 didn't have anything to do with us being in the playoff races.

 

Where was Sabathia in the postseason when his team needed him to step up with the injury to Sheets? Posting a 12.27 ERA over just one 3.2 IP outing! Boooo! Everything else he did to help us get there was worthless!

[sgtcluels]

Sheets is stupid good when he's healthy. Lot of dumb luck made his IP dip, but I'd welcome him back with open arms.

 

As TLB says, even when hurt he still contributes more then junkballers.

[rluzinski]

3.6 ERA + 160 IP = $15 mil/year

 

If he wants to be paid like a guy who can be expected to pitch 210 innings, He's not going to find any takers. But if a guy of his talent might only get a 2/$30 deal, it's obvious that his injury history is being considered.

 

All that other stuff about "when we needed him most" just doesn't mean anything to me. But I guess I don't take it personally when an athlete gets injured.

[Scooter1027]

3.6 ERA + 160 IP = $15 mil/year

 

If he wants to be paid like a guy who can be expected to pitch 210 innings, He's not going to find any takers. But if a guy of his talent might only get a 2/$30 deal, it's obvious that his injury history is being considered.

 

All that other stuff about "when we needed him most" just doesn't mean anything to me. But I guess I don't take it personally when an athlete gets injured.

Yeah, that "when we needed him most" stuff is junk, I agree. You know when I think we "needed him most"? Before we had Sabathia, after we lost Gallardo. He came through huge, so huge that he was the NL starting pitcher in the All-Star game. Are people forgetting about that already? Without the season he gave us, we wouldn't have even been in position to make a deal for Sabathia, we would have been trade deadline sellers, not buyers. Yes, it was a bummer we were without him come playoff time, but he was a huge reason we were there in the first place. I think people are going to regret being so happy to see him go....this rotation does not look nearly as good without him.

[joepepsi]

You know when I think we "needed him most"? Before we had Sabathia, after we lost Gallardo. He came through huge, so huge that he was the NL starting pitcher in the All-Star game. Are people forgetting about that already? Without the season he gave us, we wouldn't have even been in position to make a deal for Sabathia, we would have been trade deadline sellers, not buyers.

Wow, that's a great way to put it. I had to look it up. You know what Ben did before CC arrived? Check it out:

17 starts, 10-2, 2.77 ERA

 

Looks pretty close to what CC did when he arrived:

17 starts, 11-2, 1.65 ERA

 

15 of CC's starts over that time were QS, 11 of Ben's were through his first 17 starts.

[RockCoCougars]

I'm beginning to think that there is much more to this story than we know. Combining Sheets' statements at the end of the year with this seeming apathy towards him by the team, I gotta thing some serious stuff went down between Sheets and the team that we do not know about. Why else would they not pursue him?

[bklynbrewcrew]

I'm beginning to think that there is much more to this story than we know. Combining Sheets' statements at the end of the year with this seeming apathy towards him by the team, I gotta thing some serious stuff went down between Sheets and the team that we do not know about. Why else would they not pursue him?

 

I agree with this statement completely. When Melvin says he is looking at the likes of Jaime Moyer yet wont offer Sheets a deal I really question what is going on. I think we could sign Sheets and Fuentes/Hoffman and be in position to make the playoffs again next season. Instead we are dumping salary (Cameron) and looking at retreads instead of signing Sheets who is great. On one hand the Brewers wanted to keep CC and compete but since we lost him it seems like we have decided to break down this team and start over. None of this makes any sense to me at all and I really wish someone would give a logical explanation as to what is going on with this team.

 

We waited so long to make the playoffs that I would hate to see us become the pirates again just one season later when we still have a great young nucleus of players.

[rluzinski]

None of this makes any sense to me at all and I really wish someone would give a logical explanation as to what is going on with this team.

 

It's pretty simple, IMO. Melvin has maybe $10 mil to spend in free agency as the roster currently stands. If he dumps Cameron's salary, he has $20 mil. Keep those two numbers in mind and I think everything will become crystal clear.

[bklynbrewcrew]

None of this makes any sense to me at all and I really wish someone would give a logical explanation as to what is going on with this team.

 

It's pretty simple, IMO. Melvin has maybe $10 mil to spend in free agency as the roster currently stands. If he dumps Cameron's salary, he has $20 mil. Keep those two numbers in mind and I think everything will become crystal clear.

If we were willing to give CC the money we should be willing to spend it on other top flight players. As far as having 20 million to spend I dont see us using the money. we will probably just add a stiff like Moyer or Garland for 5 mil or so and be done. If we arent willing to give Sheets the money I dont think we will be signing or trading for any established star players. As of now i see this team winning approximately 75 games and that is sad.

[chadomac]

Time and time again, Sheets gets injured when we need him the most at the end of the season when the pennant is on the line or when we are in a playoff chase.

Actually that only happened once, 2008.

Actually it happened both in 2007 and 2008.

[PeaveyFury]

Actually it happened both in 2007 and 2008.

 

Sheets made 5 starts in late August/September in 2007, FWIW.

[giffted1]

If we were willing to give CC the money we should be willing to spend it on other top flight players.

It's already been stated that Melvin can't shift the money that would have gone toward Sabathia to other FA's, but I'm sure you already knew that.

If we arent willing to give Sheets the money I dont think we will be signing or trading for any established star players.

I'd like to sign Sheets too, but if he doesn't want to return, there's not much Melvin can do.

As of now i see this team winning approximately 75 games and that is sad.

It's sad that you're writing off the season in early December.

[twobrewers]

I'm beginning to think that there is much more to this story than we know. Combining Sheets' statements at the end of the year with this seeming apathy towards him by the team, I gotta thing some serious stuff went down between Sheets and the team that we do not know about. Why else would they not pursue him?

I wonder how Sheets was in the clubhouse.

 

His lackadaisical attitude towards hitting always bothered me. I don't mind you sucking - but at least care that you suck. Sheets might have taken that attitude in other avenues as well.